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 The Eigenharp 
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
Jeff_Hodges wrote:
Perhaps this is just a semantic issue, but it has been making my gears turn ever since I first saw this.

Is a new "controller" really a new "instrument?" The Eigenharp seems like a pretty cool way to do what is already possible on the computer through programs like Ableton. Ultimately, it is the computer that is being played.

Technically speaking, isn't every piece of digital equipment a "computer"? I'm pretty sure there's a "chip" running things inside my multi-effects units.

And couldn't one consider any electric guitar, keyboard, Chapman Stick etc. a "controller" as the sound we hear is being generated electronically?

akinu wrote:
I have the same question with regard to D.J.s as performance and recording artists. I feel they are playing and mixing already recorded and already performed sounds that can be mixed and played at home, without a necessity to perform live in order to produce a more 'natural' or 'live' sound.

That said, I am still not fully knowledgeable about DJ-ing and can be persuaded.

One way to look at DJ-ing and sample-based music is to consider equivalents in the art world e.g. collages or using scrap metal etc. It's about taking something old, breaking it down, and possibly coming up with something new and interesting. It might never compare to an original masterpiece in oil, but they are essentially two different art forms.

Cheers,
Andy

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Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:28 pm
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
adde65 wrote:
Technically speaking, isn't every piece of digital equipment a "computer"? I'm pretty sure there's a "chip" running things inside my multi-effects units.

And couldn't one consider any electric guitar, keyboard, Chapman Stick etc. a "controller" as the sound we hear is being generated electronically?

Cheers,
Andy


Good discussion!

I think the definition of a piece of equipment 'being' a computer would be based on the primary purpose of the equipment.... A PC is designed to BE a computer where a piece of of gear that has a computer in it would not be considered that (unless it was designed/designated as such - rhythm computer for example). In these cases the 'computer' inside is just a component just like the resistors, integrated circuits, etc.

I would consider guitars, Sticks, keyboards (with built-in tone generators) etc. to be instruments rather then just controllers because they generate musical tones by themselves (with an amp of course) where something like a turntable or CD player - even when plugged in - do not generate music on their own (unless you are circuit-bending...then they could be considered...). Even when you put a record or CD on and play it they don't become musical instruments...they are music reproduction devices playing back completed or pre-recorded music performances. Guitars, etc. have their mechanism, or controller section, for generating their tones - much like a trumpet or sax has it's keys. Of course even the trumpet doesn't generate it's own tone until one is injected into it via the mouth piece...a saxophone on the otherhand only needs air applied as it's tone generator is built in - so does that mean a trumpet is not an instrument but more of a filtering effect processor?

For me, I believe that the actual application of an item determines whether or not it can be considered an instrument rather then just a controller. By itself a keyboard controller is just that - a controller. It doesn't become an instrument until is connected to a tone generating system, be it computer, sound module, etc. And then it is only part of the 'instrument'. So if the Eiganharp can be plugged directly into an amp - I guess it would be considered an instrument. If it has to be plugged into a sound module, softsynth, etc., then it is a controller until it become part of a system.

Whether to consider DJ's etc., who only sample CDs and records as musicians..it's a tough call but I would tend to say, in general, no. Instead I think that in these situations they are producers - they are producing a musical composition based on others musical instrument performances - just like producers in the big studios.. Of course this then leads to 'what about sample based instruments' which encompasses a lot of synths, etc. I would consider these samples not to be a performance on their own. If the DJ was to take samples of individual drum or note hits and re-arrange them to create a composition, then I would consider him/her to be a musician...it's really no different then what most electronic keyboards do. Also to consider - while they may sample sections of songs and arrange them to their liking, which by my definition above makes them producers - if they rap, sing, play a shaker, etc. over top, THEN they are musicians...


Just my thoughts...

Dave

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Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:23 am
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
I'll post the thoughts I offered on StickWire:

The computer can be an instrument all by itself, but using a qwerty keyboard and a mouse is perhaps not the most musical way to control it. The Eigenharp is another example of electronic musicians trying to find more musical ways to control the computer. I think that our definitions of "instruments" are evolving as electronic music making advances. "Modularity" is the term that comes to mind. Increasingly you find--especially with interactive computer music--that the "instrument" is made of component pieces. The computer, the software, and the controller all together can form an instrument when combined. Through the use of software like Max/MSP and controllers like the JazzMutant Lemur, a level of customization can be achieved that can even make the instrument indistinguishable from the musical piece in which it's used. Electronic musicians will keep trying to find the most musical control that they can and our definitions of instruments will probably keep evolving along with that.

Dave

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Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:29 am
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
It looks like a fantastic controller, especially being able to rock the keys like bending a string while using a breath controller.

I wouldn't consider the Stick or electric guitar a "controller" per se because it actually does produce the frequency mechanically in a way you could feel under your fingers and hear regardless of the amp it is controlling.

As to the debate about whether samplers and turntablists are musicians, I see them as percussionists. They work produce a specific sound at a specific rhythm with the device in front of them; why not put them in the same class as players of drums, tubular bells, or marimbas?


Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:34 am
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/16/eige ... -hands-on/


Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:15 pm
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
I seem to disagree with most of you on what makes something "an instrument" :-) I think that it is the grade of musical expression a thing offers the musician that makes it an instrument. And that has nothing to do with if the sound is physically produced withing the actual gadget or somewhere else. I guess what some would call "a very sensitive controller" would be "an instrument" in my book. How about that?

I formed this opinion after I started playing the EWI and realized that it feels more like an instrument to me if hooked up by MIDI to control certain virtual instruments in a laptop then if played with its built-in synth engine.

The Eigenharp looks cool, but I have no idea how much an instrument it really is until I have played one.

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Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:18 pm
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
Per Boysen wrote:
...I think that it is the grade of musical expression a thing offers the musician that makes it an instrument...


Hi Per,

Good to see you on stickist.com!

I think you make a great point, but I would also add that the amount of expression a musician brings to any given instrument is of even greater importance. The best musical tools in the world are useless to us if we don't have something to say.

This discussion reminded me of a couple of my busking buddies. One of them plays a traditional instrument; a pan flute with canned iPod tracks from "Lambada" to "Amazing Grace". He's friendly and probably an ok player, but there's 0% creativity or risk involved with what he does. In fact, he's even got the flute track recorded (softly), so he can stop to sell CDs without affecting the music!
Then there's someone else who plays a a big piece of plastic; a synth workstation. But this guy throws himself into it, improvising wildly, triggering sequenced drum fills manually by hitting buttons while he's in the middle of playing bass lines and soloing. It doesn't always work, but I always feel like I'm hearing a real performance.

The most important "controller" should always be the musician.

Cheers,
Andy

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Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:44 pm
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Post Re: The Eigenharp
Per Boysen wrote:
...
I formed this opinion after I started playing the EWI and realized that it feels more like an instrument to me if hooked up by MIDI to control certain virtual instruments in a laptop then if played with its built-in synth engine...


Good to see you here Per! I enjoy your contributions on the Mobius forums/mailings!

I don't think whether it feels more or less like an instrument is the determining factor as to whether it should actually be considered an instrument or not. Much the same as comparing a good trumpet to a bad one, or upgrading an instrument (better pickups on a guitar for example) - they are still instruments and not controllers. The fact that the EWI now has it's own built-in sound generator would qualify it as an instrument and not just a controller like the older versions or the WX series of controllers from Yamaha. Of course when combined with a tone generator, be it synth module or computer running soft-synths, then it become an instrument. (at least in my personal book of 'what constitutes and instrument or controller :) )

The musicians application of the instrument - what ever type or quality - though is the most important part of creating music. I have a friend who is a superb guitarist and he will buy a cheap guitar for example, adjust it, and make great music with it... On the other hand, I've heard many incompetant guitarists play very well made instruments and not do well at all...

Dave

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