It is currently Fri May 10, 2024 8:51 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
 Theory question about chords and keys 
Author Message
Master Contributor
Master Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:35 am
Posts: 1210
Location: Indonesia
Post Re: Theory question about chords and keys
Here is perhaps an easier graphic notation for playing only the first two measures of the solo. It's assuming you've got a 10 string 5+5 so only five strings on the melody side of course. Notice how it climbs up and down and always comes back to the middle string. Also, notice this kind of line is not the first thing most guitarists would think of playing to these chords and how much more like a sax line it sounds than a guitar. The last motif isn't labeled as a (c) or the fact it's a quartal arpeggio.

_________________
www.soundclick.com/gongchime


Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:48 pm
Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:21 pm
Posts: 18
Post Re: Theory question about chords and keys
Hey Greg,

Most of what has been said by others here covers most of what you might consider in a context of analytic theory:

    (Concept or Method: Examples)

  • Tonicization: I -> V7/V -> V7 -> I ( D7 -> G7 -> C, where G is tonicized in place of C temporarily) A chord other than I or i is subjected to temporary use as tonic by way of a dominant-function chord. A notable example is in Debussy's Clair de lune from his Suite bergamasque, in which a number of secondary dominants are featured in the opening measures, whose effect is to slowly step down the melodic idea as if cascading by moonlight.
    -----
  • Modal Interchange: I -> bVI -> bVII - I ( C -> Ab -> Bb -> C ) A chord or chords from the parallel minor or major key of a starting key ( C in relation to a, for instance) are 'borrowed' and used to change the feel or motion of certain passages. These are found all over Bob Dylan and The Beatles. The Beatles' Michelle features great mixture and interchange throughout.
    -----
  • Modulation: I -> V7/V -> V -> ii/V -> V7/V -> V ( C -> D7 -> G -> Am -> D7 -> G ); I -> ii -> bIII -> bIV7 - > bVII ( C -> Dm -> Eb -> F7 -> Bb) A series of chords are used to create a long-lasting or permanent change of tonal center in a piece, for any number of formal or expressive reasons. The first progression features the use of a dominant chord from the new key, G, followed by confirmation of the new key using a ii V I progression from that key. The second progression I have contrived features a common chord modulation, in which the chord Dm functions as a ii in C major and a iii in Bb major; the common chord is followed by chords F7 and Bb which are formally in the second key of Bb major. Many fugues and sonatas from the Baroque and Classical eras feature modulations to the relative dominant key as markers for different sections of the form, as well as for expressive effect.
    -----
  • Chromatic Alteration: I -> vii -> iii -> vi -> ii -> V - I ( C -> Bm -> Em -> Am -> Dm -> G -> C ) A note in a chord is altered chromatically to change the quality of the chord. In the progression I have provided, Bdim is altered to Bm by chromatically raising F to F#. F later reappears unaltered in Dm as the progression moves on. Chromatic alteration which does not form an obvious secondary dominant or which does not have satisfactory explanation as a borrowed chord is generally used for case-by-case expression, such as to set up a relentless chain of minor chords before the final authentic cadence in my example.
    -----

Within functional harmony (most everything you've ever heard that's diatonic uses it, so it's immediately recognizable in popular music from five centuries ago through to today), those are the main explanations of the appearance of a chord or multiple chords that are not within the immediate key in which the preceding chords fit easily. Often, these methods at least create aural interest, if not tension, because of the use of tones which are not natural to the key, such as any accidental in something which is predominantly explicable as C major.


As for the matter of what defines what, keys or chords:

It is my belief that the question is somewhat fruitless, if we remain in the world of purely diatonic music which has almost intuitive structures which we as a Western audience have heard since birth. However, diatonic contexts may still be examined in ways no less than valid. Let us consider C major, both the notes and the chords -

C - D - E - F - G - A - B

I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii°

- the chords may be seen to emerge from the pattern of tertian (thirds) intervals between the notes of the scale, with special mention of dominant seventh chords and diminished seventh chords as gaining their properties from extended sequences of thirds, with tertian organization as our prevailing standard of harmonic construction. At the same time, the 'power' or 'stability' of C as the key center or tonic depends largely on the chords leading into it by circle progression ( vii° -> iii -> ... -> V -> I) to develop its sense of resolution. The relation between chords and key is almost symbiotic, or even nondual, such that the chords are the key an the key is the chords, so to speak, as long as we remain in the realm of diatonic and primarily functional harmony.

However, if we step away from a purely diatonic realm and move to something such as the melodic minor (jazz minor) scale, some interesting points (though still somewhat chained to the ground we just left) arise. -

A - B - C - D - E - F# - G#

i - ii - bIII+ - IV - V - vi° - vii°

- In this harmonization, many of the chords are diminished, augmented, or would form dominant function with the addition of sevenths quite easily. As such, I consider the chords here to be purely followings of the scale, rather than the key an easy following of the chords. Because most of these chords are dissonant, they can resolve readily to tonics other than A, and in a sense have to be forced to retain their reference to A as tonic.

The melodic minor does point out, though, something which I judge to be important to understanding a sense of key or tonic, but which tends to go unnoticed in favor of the above considerations, which are primarily 'vertical', in that they examine diatonic principles mainly by way of block chord descriptions. I believe that the horizontal aspect of melody can also change the sense of tonic by way of regulated step-wise motion. If you consider the raised tones of the melodic minor, or the flatted second of a Phrygian-flavored scale, both particular sequences of half-step figures put emphasis on the second tone, such that it feels like a tonic or key center.

If you noodle around and change tones such that they approach a tone by smaller and smaller successive intervals, down to a half-step, the final tone played on the other end of that last interval will feel decidedly like a key center, albeit embellished in a manner with a possibly modal or other flavor.




I understand that all of what I've posted above is quite technical and in many senses redundant, so I'll attempt to shed a few more examples of an informal nature to the cause of making things understandable:

  • If I am playing chords primarily in the key of C, and out of nowhere I pull a chord like Gbsus4, chances are that it's just there to sound harsh and unexpected and to generate a strong tension which still has a pleasant stand-alone sound (that is, if it weren't surrounded by notes and chords which it traditionally hates, so to speak).
    -----
  • Chords, while diatonic, need not rely on that fact for expressive effect: a pattern like the opening chords from Debussy's La cathédrale engloutie produces a church bell effect which transcends the specific chords and harmonies present in the music. The recurrent planing (parallel voicings) of the chords almost removes the tonal sense in favor of something more akin to color superimposed on the primary tone of C at a point about halfway through the piece.
    -----
  • There are some Katy Perry songs which do interesting things, strangely enough, like 'Thinking of You' and 'Last Friday Night'; the former has relatively tasteful modal interchange, and the latter doesn't play the tonic triad in its main progression, as far as I can recall. Both of these things create interest and tension while still remaining quite true to key.
    -----

Well, after all of that, I hope you can pick up a few perspectives and theories to use when examining music, since that's ultimately what all of this is. There is no *right* way to codify music, as for every supposed rule there are a hundred if not a thousand refuting examples. Mozart used parallel fifths in resolving certain instances of augmented sixth chords, and parallel fifths are supposedly the musical bane of voice-leading or voice-independence, which has been cherished in Western classical music for centuries. Beethoven wrote his Große Fuge, which eschewed much convention concerning the writing of fugues. Bach wrote his madly expressive Chromatic Fantasia and his infamous Toccata and Fugue in D minor, which need very little explanation as far as their contribution to the sanctity, or stifling limits, of rules goes. Need I mention Arnold Schoenberg or Kaikhosru Sorabji?

In sum, music, at the end of the day, classical or colloquial, is a matter of effect, and I believe that at the end of any analysis, it is the wish of the music to remain true to effect that can and will explain any incidence of the seemingly illogical or inexplicable in the turns of its movement.


Last edited by Maynard on Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:52 pm
Profile
Multiple Donor
Multiple Donor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:07 pm
Posts: 7088
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Post Re: Theory question about chords and keys
thanks for such a detailed and nicely laid out explanation, Maynard!

_________________
Happy tapping, greg
Schedule an online Stick lesson


Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:24 am
Profile My Photo Gallery
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:24 pm
Posts: 142
Post Re: Theory question about chords and keys
Per Boysen wrote:
If a chord implies a lot of melody notes outside the key I regard it a key change if the new harmonic structure does not repel back.

For my hearing it is most often the melodies that define the key, rather than chords. But I do hear melodies and chords as two sides of the same musical phenomenon. The reason I use the word "melody" rather than "scale" is that I think performance details like accents is what makes a melody hang with some particular key (not necessarily the scale). And such details is also what for me makes a scale become a melody.

Im definitely with you on that.


Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:54 pm
Profile
Site Donor
Site Donor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:05 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Aubrey, Texas
Post Re: Theory question about chords and keys
I believe the Key determines the Chord. :)


Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:18 pm
Profile
Elite Contributor
Elite Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 2587
Location: Shawinigan, Quebec, Canada
Post Re: Theory question about chords and keys
greg wrote:
So here's a chicken and egg question for all you theory experts:

Do keys define chords, or is it the other way around.



Well...what I can see is...when I see a tonality (whatever the one is) I see right away what are the degrees related with this tonality. I know where is the second degree (minor), the fifth (dominant 7th), etc...and if it goes out of these chords I look for substitution chords, passing chords and more stuff like this. And if it is really out of these situations I look at a "new tonality" possible, a new "one" in fact, and how the chords are related to this new "one" (or new tonality). That is a trick I learned from basics Berklee lessons. It works for me so far.

_________________
Grand Stick, Wenge, 12 strings, MR, SN 6667
http://soundcloud.com/Kataway
http://www.youtube.com/user/Shawinijazz
https://alainauclair.bandcamp.com/


Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:38 am
Profile My Photo Gallery
Master Contributor
Master Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:35 am
Posts: 1210
Location: Indonesia
Post Re: Theory question about chords and keys
Berklee is great. My best all time favorite book on composing popular melody is their book titled "Melody in Songwriting." Before I studied that book, I didn't like anything I composed.

It can be found here in case anyone's wondering. http://www.amazon.com/Melody-Songwritin ... 063400638X.

The author says that varying the starting pitches, ending pitches, starting position and ending position between phrases and sections is important. And how consequent phrases reach a higher (or sometimes lower) pitch, leap a larger interval, have a louder dynamic, have a longer note value etc..

He also talks about how the modes most commonly used in pop/rock/blues/hip-hop/urban/rap after Ionian/Major are; Dorian, Mixolydian, and Aeolian because the lack of a leading tone helps avoid strong cadencing which is undesirable in groove based music. You want to keep grooving not bring everything to a final ending every phrase or section.

He also says Harmonic minor is mostly for building chords (which cadence very strongly) although Ingvie Malmsteen types use it for melody. The raised seventh really pushes hard to the I chord and makes it less suitable for groove based music as melody.

The other thing they mentioned was how the lowered second of Phrygian acts as a downward leading tone to the tonic which also causes strong cadencing but frequently shows up in progressive rock in any event.

_________________
www.soundclick.com/gongchime


Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:18 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

board3 Portal - based on phpBB3 Portal Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.
Heavily modified by Stickist.com. Stickist.com is an authorized Chapman Stick® site. The Chapman Stick® and NS/Stick™ and their marks are federally registered trademarks exclusively licensed to Stick Enterprises, Inc., and are used on Stickist.com and NSstickist.com with SEI's permission.
Click here for more information.