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 Triad Inversions; 
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Post Triad Inversions;
I'm just curious as to how it is everyone learned to do their triad inversions; What are your location strategies, note awareness within the inversion, how are you practicing them, and where do you find the most practical useage for them on both melody and bass side when it comes to the Stick, arrangement, improv, etc...

I have some ideas, and I've been digging into these pretty hardcore of late on the Stick. I am interested to see what people post on this topic...

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Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
Let's see... I know my triads very well, comes from the Jazz bass territory I guess: you have to know instantly which notes are in each chord that's being played at any given time. The thing with harmonic instruments, like the stick, the guitar or the piano, is that the brain will always revert to a Graphic image over theoretical knowledge. So what I did first was let the brain work in a way it's more suited to him: I learned the design of the 4 triads, in each inversion on just one key (mechanics must come first), while keeping track of the tonic. Once the brain memorized that and the fingers learned the way I then started to play all tunes I could think of, just a simple accompaniment: that teached the brain another Graphic thing: this design in that specific place is the X Chord. At this stage I'm at, i just think Amin and both hands go to the right place, I don't really worry about it... Of course Some places of the fingerboard i don't know so well and can't instantly put any triad there, like the last 5 frets, but that's because I didn't had the need to do them there yet. Each new song teaches something new.
These days my brain does this in the background: major triad it's this position, (whatever the inversion) if I want to hear the 4th instead of the 3rd, this finger moves like this, or the 7th or the 9th, or the 6th... The stick is an amazing instrument because, on top of everything amazing about it, it's conceived to take the most advantage out of this natural aptitude: that's why I think Emmet is a genius - you had to have a musician think about this things, not just a guy that builds nice sounding instruments. The whole keyless concept, is amazing because it makes everything super easy. If, as I think you do, you know your theory, musical knowledge with the stick becomes what it is supposed to be: a tool to let you understand and compose and arrange, but when you're playing... It's just graffics and sound. That's how the brain in wired anyway. Bottom line, Steve A. Explains this a lot better in his video, triads and stuff, this is just how I understood what he said there.


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Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:31 pm
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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
I'm way early in this whole process, so I don't know if what I'm learning will be of any benefit.

I am familiar with three inversions from piano, just dropping the fifth and octave below the root and third, and then dropping the third an octave, to be low the dropped fifth, with the root staying.

I'm not familiar with a fourth triad from piano - too far to reach I think unless you have huge hands, but I saw Rob Martino using a shape that wasn't one of the three I knew - it raises both the 3rd and the 5th an octave.

The fifth triad I am aware of comes from trying to replicate the sound of the 5ths tuning bass side on my mirrored 4ths tuned stick. In this one, the 3rd is raised an octave while leaving the root and 5ths in place.

So that's head knowledge. But knowing those five shapes (or even knowing they are there, if you've only really memorized two) helps when playing. But it's playing that puts them into my brain. I'm trying to learn a simple piano tune (Sarabande) that uses simple minor chord shapes. It's teaching me more than all the studying I did before getting my stick. On the otherhand, having done that studying makes the playing faster.

I loved your power chord video. I'm going to try something like that with each of the shapes.

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Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:45 am
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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
This is one of the coolest things about the Sticks 4ths melody/ inverted 5ths bass tuning.

any chord shape you learn on the melody side is and inversion of the same shape on the bass side, and vice versa.

If you look at the first couple of pages of each chapter 3 and 4 in my Stick Book you'll find tabs for all of the common chord shapes with the tonic positions clearly identified.

From a practical standpoint, I think the best thing you can do is to learn inversions in a harmonic context. Consider a I-IV-V progression as a starting point. All three chords can be played on the same three strings, and all three shapes will be used, with the tonic in each of the three positions.

Code:

Classic tuning (or Bari Melody) frets shown, for MR add 2 frets to melody chords.

CMaj
-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-

----G----------------
----------E----------
-------------C-------

FMaj (tonic in the middle)
-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-

----------A----------
-------------F-------
-------------C-------

GMaj (tonic on the top)
-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-

----G----------------
----D----------------
----------B----------
         


You can also play these same shapes on the bass side, with the tonic position inverted.

Code:
Classic Bass. For RMR tuning subtract 2 from the fret numbers.

CMaj (tonic on the top)
-4--5--6--7--8--9-

----G----------------
----------E----------
-------------C-------

FMaj (tonic in the middle)
-4--5--6--7--8--9-

----------A----------
-------------F-------
-------------C-------

GMaj (tonic on the bottom)
-4--5--6--7--8--9-

----G----------------
----D----------------
----------B----------
         


You can expand this exercise by starting with an inversion. This helps us develop voice-leading skills in both hands...

There is an exercise in Chapter 4 of The Stick Book called chord placement that you can use to develop these skills as well.

Hope that's helpful.

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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
Some basics:

A triad has, by definition, three elements: tonic (root), third, and fifth. One or more can be doubled, but when you add a seventh, it is no longer a triad.

In addition to the root position, there are two inversions. One has the third in the bass (known as the 6 chord, or first inversion) and the other has the fifth in the bass (the 6/4 chord, second inversion). Inversions are defined by the bass note only, so as long as the other pitches are R, 3, and 5, they can be used in any permutation. These possibilities are collectively known as voicings of the triad.

Why have names for these? Well, inversions open up melodic possibilities in the bassline and so they get used all the time. If we were forced to always play chords in root position, we would be stuck with a very particular sound...lots of root movement by fourths and fifths. The progression V-I would always have a bassline of the fifth scale degree to the tonic...but by using the V6, you can have your bassline proceed from the third of the V chord, which is the seventh scale degree. Likewise, by using the V6/4 you can go from the second scale degree to the tonic. So our palette of diatonic bassline possibilities for V-I expands from just the fifth scale degree moving to the tonic, to include coming from the second or seventh scale degrees, through the use of inversions.

Stick players should be wary of talking about melody-side inversions. If you are playing anything on the bass side, the lowest note there determines the inversion. In other words, if you are playing low C on the bass side, and C6 on the melody side, you are still playing a root-position chord.


Mad Monk.

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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
mad_monk wrote:
Stick players should be wary of talking about melody-side inversions. If you are playing anything on the bass side, the lowest note there determines the inversion. In other words, if you are playing low C on the bass side, and C6 on the melody side, you are still playing a root-position chord.
Mad Monk.
Randy,

I get where you are coming from with this, but it's simply the easiest way to remember the shape of the chord and the location of the tonic in the chord (which helps you place it on the board in a hurry). This is really helpful in comping with the right hand, especially in rock and reggae situations..

Cheers!

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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
Yeah, I get that....
But it is also good to know the technical definition of terms that get used here.

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Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:54 pm
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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
As I understand it, the normal three triads for C are - root position or C 3/5, first inversion or C 6/3 and second inversion or C 6/4. How would you refer to one that was still a triad, but not arranged in the standard order?

I guess raising the 3rd an octave and leaving the 5th in place would be C 10/5, because you raise the third to a 10th above the root, but the 5th remains?

Playing it like Rob Martino does in mirrored 4ths with both the 3rd and 5th raised an octave would be C 12/10, because the 5th and octave up would be a 12, and the 3rd and octave up is the 10th?

So playing the same root position shape on the base side 5ths tuning like Greg said, would be called what? The if you say the 3rd is unchanged, the 5th is down an octave and the root is up an octave. Or if the root is unchanged, the 3rd is down an octave and the 5th is down two octaves.

In the second inversion shape, the root and 5th stay the same, but the 3rd is dropped an octave. I don't know what to call these shapes...

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Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:23 pm
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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
ArmyDoc wrote:

So playing the same root position shape on the base side 5ths tuning like Greg said, would be called what? The if you say the 3rd is unchanged, the 5th is down an octave and the root is up an octave. Or if the root is unchanged, the 3rd is down an octave and the 5th is down two octaves.

In the second inversion shape, the root and 5th stay the same, but the 3rd is dropped an octave. I don't know what to call these shapes...
If the third is in the bass I call it the first inversion. If the 5th is in the bass I call it the 2nd inversion. It doesn't matter if the tuning creates an "open voicing" we need to be able to find and identify the chord quickly, especially when reading lead sheets...

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Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Triad Inversions;
greg wrote:
ArmyDoc wrote:

So playing the same root position shape on the base side 5ths tuning like Greg said, would be called what? The if you say the 3rd is unchanged, the 5th is down an octave and the root is up an octave. Or if the root is unchanged, the 3rd is down an octave and the 5th is down two octaves.

In the second inversion shape, the root and 5th stay the same, but the 3rd is dropped an octave. I don't know what to call these shapes...
If the third is in the bass I call it the first inversion. If the 5th is in the bass I call it the 2nd inversion. It doesn't matter if the tuning creates an "open voicing" we need to be able to find and identify the chord quickly, especially when reading lead sheets...


Thanks! That makes it a lot easier.

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Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:13 pm
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