FWIW, I tend to see all musical instruments and associated gear as tools. A violin isn't the music it makes and a looper is not the sounds input into it and played back. It all comes down to what someone wants to do, and can do, with any of these tools. In the end there's no right or wrong, only opinions about how good or bad the result is to the ears of the creator and listener. Example: I think the sounds that come out of a bagpipe are like a trip to Dante's inner circles of hell, but others love it. Who am I to say they're wrong?

As for loopers, they can be used in creative ways (IMO) and in terrible ways (IMO). Here is (IMO) one of the best uses of a looper I've ever seen. Check it out starting around 3:20 into the video.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYTrLNXpR-o[/youtube]

Peace,
Karma

WOW, I need to remember how passionate these discussions can get before I start a thread like this.


Lets keep this civil please, I think these kind of discussions are healthy as long as they don't devolve into cutting sessions.

So far I have found a couple of cool videos from this so I'm happy.

When I get more time I'll add in my opinions on the subjects.

Brett

I heard the Dixie Dregs, with Mark O'Conner on violin, perform one of their rare songs that had vocals by playing to a tape of the vocal track.

They also put a manikin in front of a mike.

It was funny, and also the only way to perform the tune without taking a singer on the road for one song.

Like everything, beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.

Hi all,

Interesting reads all the way around. I should also point out that I'm flattered at being mentioned a couple of times as someone who you feel "does it right". That means a lot. I've done workshops on looping a few times and have always been a strong proponent of the fact that if you're going to do it live, you have to be aware of your audience and put yourself in their shoes. In other words, avoid the 20 minute naval-gazing extravaganza and do whatever you can to avoid having all of your stuff sound the same.

With that said ... first I should point out that losing any sleep over whether or not your audience appreciates the effort of what you're doing is going to lead you down a long road of ulcers and serious depression. Most people have no idea what goes into making music and simply want to be entertained. Otherwise we wouldn't have a culture of rock and pop music 90% dominated by people with a music education roughly equivalent to that of a 6th grade band kid. Plus it's all relative. I have an old high school buddy who is an extremely accomplished jazz trumpeter living in NYC whose overall encyclopedic knowledge of music puts me to shame. For the most part he's pretty open minded but a lot of his buddies would consider any of us who are relying on electricity as "cheating".

The bottom line is that you have to regularly ask yourself what kind of musician you want to be today. Over the years I've played horn in the orchestra and in large and small jazz ensembles. I've played piano recitals. I've played guitar, keys, bass and Stick in all manner of rock bands playing my music and other people's music. I've played solo Stick with and without my rig.

Most of the time I consider myself a composer who happens to play the Stick as well as guitar and piano. My preference is to lock up inside and use the studio to create sonically big and lush pieces of music with no regard to live performance whatsoever. That has been true for 30 years. Occasionally I do get the itch to do some of the music live. Up until 1999, that was an itch I couldn't scratch but the discovery of the Stick and looping devices has allowed me to do it. When I do, the reaction I generally get speaks for itself.

In the end you just have to do music that moves you in order to move your audience. I've heard some incredibly proficient players do drek that is entirely un-imaginative and un-musical. I've heard players with mediocre (or less) technical skills (even guys with laptops and keyboards) do things that gave me goosebumps. To me everything else is artificial criteria invented in an effort for people rationalize their own choices. Choices that, in my opinion, require no justification.

Back on the original topic ... my own personal preference is to avoid "backing tracks". I've dabbled but there has always been something about it that just doesn't work for me and so studio pieces that need backing tracks to be performed simply don't get performed. That's why I've avoided looping devices that let me save anything. That's also why I've been slowly phasing out the drum machine.

Lastly ... it's all "effect". Musicians for years have had debates over covering mediocre playing with heavy delay and flanger or covering up sloppy playing with heavy distortion or even amplification. And let's face it. Anyone who goes out in public with a Stick is relying to a certain degree on "gimmick" to pull in an audience. It's whether or not you can keep them there that is the question.

I remember watching a Flaming Lips show in Austin a few years back.
Instead of a drummer they had a video on a screen behind the stage of a guy playing drums in a studio for all of there songs...

Let's see, I thought it was pretty simple and straightforward. Let's examine what I said one more time.

Forget which instrument you play. Doesn't matter. If someone comes up to you and says "Play me something", you should be able to make it through a song right then and there without saying "Sorry, can't do it without my looper."

If you're on stage and your looping rig goes down, you'd better be able to get up there and do something. That's what separates the musicians from the hacks. Feel me?

And I'm not an elitist. Far from it.

A

" And let's face it. Anyone who goes out in public with a Stick is relying to a certain degree on "gimmick" to pull in an audience. It's whether or not you can keep them there that is the question." - Quote Glenn

Sorry, Glenn. I have to take issue with that. At the festivals we play, people come from the other side of the park becaused the MUSIC led them there, not because they spotted some oddity and wanted a closer look. They tell us all the time that they simply had to find out where the music was coming from. It's only when they arrive at our booth that they realize we're playing an unusual instrument.

I work extremely hard at arranging music for two Sticks, and I'm proud of what I do. Gimmick is the last thing that would enter into what we do. I'd give it up if that's what it was all about.

Coming from a jazz (and rock) background my knee-jerk is to do everything live "in the moment".

Would Keith Jarrett use loops? Would Metheny use Loops?..........Oh wait he does.

I saw the Orchestrion show twice live, kind of a new take on prerecorded/loops thing AMAZING SHOW.

So, My gut says "no way" but I have been shown that a great artist is a great artist and that this kind of technology can be moving and amazing.

So I guess I really love the no overdubs live thing the most, but I can see the artistry in a great looper or using backing tracks. To me it's about music and honesty. Pressing play on your Qchord and pretending that you are in control of the arpeggios that randomly come out is dishonest. Using a looper the way Tom G did in the video I think is very cool.

Now will I use tracks or loops, probably not. Although I will consider such methods if I can find a musical need for them. Quite frankly I think there is a real art to using a looper, Man it looks hard. You have to be in perfect time, you have to concentrate on your feet and your groove/notes. I give credit to those who do it well.

Brett

Of course that is true! And I would never claim that the visual is what it's all about. If that were true, you wouldn't be doing what you're doing as those people tend not to buy anything. But to say that it's not there to a small degree would be to claim that there isn't so much as one person at a performance you do that stopped because of the visual and I can guarantee that that simply isn't true.

I would never claim that you rely on it (although I'm sure some folks do) but it's always looming ... sometimes just a little ... sometimes a lot.

It's all in the vision and execution. Most looping bores me. I do not have a looper. But there's no doubt in my mind that in the right hands, it becomes a very artistic tool.

Case in point: Guillermo Cides' live version of the Bach Passacaglia (gee, hope I spelled that right) in Cm. And, of course, he's a monster player with or without loops.