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 Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel? 
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
There are many ways to evaluate the skill of a musician, of which proficiency on an instrument is one. I would place greater importance on the time invested in someone's craft regardless of the tools, as I would think this has a greater impact on the artistry and scope of their music. This could apply to conductors, arrangers and composers for example, or electronic music conceived on a computer.

That said, I think there will likely be some musical deficiencies if a person is not familiar with some theory (not necessarily "western art music theory" but the ability to break down at some level what is going on in music) or does not have much instrumental experience. Being proficient on an instrument is very useful and provides a certain kind of musical insight, while technology often just serves as an easy shortcut to making sounds. But more often than not, it seems to me the strength of their music will be reflected by the time invested in their pursuit rather than a particular performance level.

If someone theoretically spent hours a day studying looping, synthesis and/or software development and came up with brilliant ways to conceive of and realize new music I would say they are just as much a musician as a competent instrumentalist (and possibly a more talented one), even if he or she couldn't necessarily perform a tune on the spot. But obviously this kind of ability can't be developed in a vacuum, and I would guess most creative/talented musicians are generally going to have some level of traditional proficiency or musical understanding. "The ends justify the means" in this case, but you obviously can't do as much with a smaller or less developed toolbox.

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Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:45 pm
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
I don't care what kind of software a person came up with or new, revolutionary synthesis he designed. That's not a musician. That's a 0101010 guy who invents yet another way NOT TO PLAY! To call him a more talented musician than someone who composes, arranges, and plays real music touches on utter sacriledge.

Musical ability is partly born with and mostly EARNED. Machines that do the playing FOR YOU are not tools. They are crutches for those who can't do (barring of course, the people I mentioned before).

Learn how to play your instrument. That's all you need. That's the only thing that's real.

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Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
Music as air freshener, music as "ear candy"? Sorry, I must side with Matt on this subject although it is a big debate. I wouldn't go so far as to criticize a performer for looping or prerecorded parts though. I'm often swept away in admiration for all sorts of genres, styles, instruments and effects including looping routines (the artist responding to the machine). Still, our greatest technology is IMO human performance, a striving for excellence, and I believe that's what communicates most powerfully to a live audience.

If so, then it's not just "what's in the grooves", or in the air, but also how it got there. An audience comes to see and experience as well as to hear. I'm a Stick purist these days, admittedly a bit biased on this subject. I long ago put my rack and pedalboard aside, and with just my Stick and stereo cable, I plug directly into the room sound whenever I can. It's a lighthearted (not lightheaded) feeling and I focus my expression into my fingertips.

For sweeter, richer textures of great variety, I'd give it to the other guy on stage, most likely an improvising woodwind/EWI player who could anticipate my chord progressions. Best, Emmett.


Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
I know there is a certain amount of pride that goes into being proficient at an instrument, and an intimate human element when the body is mechanically expressing the notes. I certainly prefer music that is created this way, and tire quickly of sequenced and quantized music "data". I realize this thread specifically brought up looping and backing tracks, but I'm just trying to step back and look at the bigger picture. I can't help but think the boundaries between instrumental performance and new technology are getting increasingly more blurred. I'm not necessarily calling the developer of the tools a musician, but the person who uses those tools in maybe more abstract ways than we are used to.

Hypothetically, if a person is born without the ability to use their limbs but can use a special interface to communicate with a computer, is somehow able to realize notes, timbres and various gestures (maybe even by brain waves), studies all forms of music theory and history and is able to create compelling music (maybe even "perform" it in real time), are they not a musician? Isn't it possible to consider the computer an actual musical instrument, simply a tool or extension of the mind, like strings, wood, metal, or plastic levers?

I may be looking at this overly theoretically (after all I went to grad school for this nonsense), but every musician has to take some path from imagination to real sound waves. It may involve causing strings to resonate with fingers, banging on something, dancing through infrared beams, or (in the future) wiring our brain directly to a sound source. That's why my point centered around time invested in the craft, i.e. "developing your chops", on whatever the real or imagined tools may be. I would guess that a guy pushing the button to get the Bossa nova rhythm on the Casio hasn't practiced for hours to hone that skill. But I can easily conceive of a brilliant musician that doesn't necessarily have to (or maybe can't) use his fingers to get something to make a noise.

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Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:40 pm
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
heartstrings wrote:
I don't care what kind of software a person came up with or new, revolutionary synthesis he designed. That's not a musician. That's a 0101010 guy who invents yet another way NOT TO PLAY! To call him a more talented musician than someone who composes, arranges, and plays real music touches on utter sacriledge.

Musical ability is partly born with and mostly EARNED. Machines that do the playing FOR YOU are not tools. They are crutches for those who can't do (barring of course, the people I mentioned before).

Learn how to play your instrument. That's all you need. That's the only thing that's real.


Well, I guess someone like Bjork is not a musician. Well said, Matt. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:20 pm
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
Why loopers are better than musicians. :lol:

You show the looper the riff one time-it plays it back exactly like you originally produced it.
Loopers don't show up to the gig drunk.
Loopers don't rush or drag the beat.
Loopers don't have a girlfriend that wants to manage the band.

Seriously I have all kinds of respect for Matt and his group. But is there really that much difference between using a looping device to perform extra parts and using another musician.

I saw Adrian Belew last year, just him and his laptop doing loops. The music was appealing and I did not feel cheated.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:14 am
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
BTW I had a looper for a short time, but sold it because I just was not using it.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:15 am
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
grozoeil wrote:
heartstrings wrote:
I don't care what kind of software a person came up with or new, revolutionary synthesis he designed. That's not a musician. That's a 0101010 guy who invents yet another way NOT TO PLAY! To call him a more talented musician than someone who composes, arranges, and plays real music touches on utter sacriledge.

Musical ability is partly born with and mostly EARNED. Machines that do the playing FOR YOU are not tools. They are crutches for those who can't do (barring of course, the people I mentioned before).

Learn how to play your instrument. That's all you need. That's the only thing that's real.


Well, I guess someone like Bjork is not a musician. Well said, Matt. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Was that a back-handed comment, Grozeil? I don't know who Bjork is and I didn't know what you meant by the :roll: rolling eyes. Did I hurt your feelings, too?

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:37 am
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
jeffcomas wrote:
Why loopers are better than musicians. :lol:

You show the looper the riff one time-it plays it back exactly like you originally produced it.
Loopers don't show up to the gig drunk.
Loopers don't rush or drag the beat.
Loopers don't have a girlfriend that wants to manage the band.

Quote:
Seriously I have all kinds of respect for Matt and his group. But is there really that much difference between using a looping device to perform extra parts and using another musician.
I saw Adrian Belew last year, just him and his laptop doing loops. The music was appealing and I did not feel cheated.


Come on, Jeff. You know better than that. Are you saying I should loop all of Mark's parts and get rid of him? You're a smart guy (I think) so I won't further dignify this. I am surprised that something that stupid left your lips, though. Your stock just went down a bit.

I can't believe all the people here who are actually posturing up in favor of loopers and laziness over human achievement.

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"With one note you can shatter a thousand notes" - Carlos Santana


Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:52 am
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Post Re: Backing tracks? Loopers? How do you feel?
It's always heartening when the annual thread that thrashes what I do shows up. Don't worry about me though. I've never looked for any kind of affirmation and love what I do :D

To Jeff though, I don't think the question is looping devices or even backing tracks by themselves but the abuse of said technology. The truth is though ... any and all technologies can and are abused in the hands of the masses. Consider the auto-tuner. The original idea was innocent enough. A great singer gets a 99% perfect take with a tiny sour note. Let's fix it. All of a sudden thousands of wannabees who look like super models are now calling themselves "singers" because their producers crank up the new technology and now they sound just like their heros on the Disney channel. As I mentioned before, the same can be said of the use of heavy delays, flangers or even distortion.

You might say that I'm talking effects and not instruments but consider the guitar. Certainly no instrument in history has ever enjoyed the huge percentage of complete musical hacks getting the adoration and money of the masses that the guitar has. Certainly a close second is the keyboard. Of course there is also the instrument that young garage bands delegate to their friend who doesn't know anything about music ... the electric bass. But then ... nobody would question the musicianship of the great electric guitarists, keyboardists or electric bassists.

I remember an old Julian Bream interview (classical guitarist) where he was asked "what do you think of the electric guitar?" and he replied "I don't". His minions applauded and launched into an electric guitar bashing frenzy saying many of the same things that have been said here over the last 48 hours.

When Pat Metheny announced the Orchestrion Tour, a thread started on Stickwire that predominately trashed the whole idea sight unseen. I was a little astonished actually but whatever. I went and experienced one of the most memorable nights of music of my life.

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