Favorite "groovy" song with Stick on it? "Waiting man" with King Crimson.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En6orVmjH6M[/youtube]

Especially from 3:55 and out. The last 25 seconds. VERY groovy at the end......!

Cool! Vince Warren. Another fantastic Stick player I was unfamiliar with. Have some vids to listen to tomorrow.

Ok I'm gonna chime in with my two cents on this subject.

I think we may have a semantics problem here with the musical term "Groove" and the concept of "Groove playing" as a musical style.

I think what Steve may have been referring to is a particular style of playing largely on the bass guitar and the 6 string guitar (correct me if I am wrong Steve, please). A style which was perhaps solidified by Marcus Miller and later Victor Wooten on the bass and guys like Ben Lacy on the guitar. This style is a kind of extreme "groove" showcase of virtuoso playing often in a solo setting.

The overall musical term "Groove" is essential to the above style but in no way limited to it. All musicians need to work on their Groove. Internalizing the rhythm, as Greg said Moving and having the technique to not only play in time but create a feeling which is highly dependent on very subtle rhythmic and (sonic) tonal mastery.

As for the musical concept of Groove I think Greg is dead on, you gotta move. I studied with Kai Eckhardt while I was at Berklee and he taught much in the same way. Move, analyze each note each sound practice slowly, don't settle for sloppiness. I have spent hours on end studying Marcus Miller and jaco lines listening to every subtle difference in tone volume rhythm and touch...... there is no other way to emulate something like this you gotta live it and
MOVE, and listen listen listen. internalize each sound, each feel.

I still can't play like them.

However I think there are some GREAT groovin' Stick Players Greg, Jim Lampi, Kevin Keith, Michael Bernier etc etc. I salivate at some of the grooviness.

As for "Groove playing" as a style I think Steve is right, not many people are at a Ben Lacy level or Victor Wooten. To me that is a style thing when someone wants "that" and has enough talent he or she will get there, Steve is probably the closest. Personally this style does nothing for me. Great amazing playing don't get me wrong but I have none of this type stuff on my ipod, it doesn't move me. I mean the solo feature stuff.

And I think there are a lot of musical elements/styles which haven't been "mastered" by stick players...... a true BeBop master, advanced modern harmonic jazz playing ala Mike Brecker, Keith Jarrett. I think we need more serious "Stick composers" that aren't in the Prog vein.But Groove we have (I mean that there are plenty of stick players who groove, I'm not saying everyone or even myself ; ) . "Groove style playing" (if I can poorly coin a term) probably not.

So to end I think Steve is right and so is Greg, and I would add that these two guys are both amazing resources for learning to groove in very different ways.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I hope I'm not way off base on what someone was trying to say, I'm just trying to be a bridge builder and trying to stop playing so damn fast and groove a little more. As a side note Greg will be at the Northeast seminar in April showing his great approach to groove and overall playing technique....not to be missed, really amazing.
And Steve and Greg are both available for Skype lessons well worth the effort.

Thoughts?
Brett

The initial question pertained to how we as Stick players need to look beyond vocabulary and be conscious of the groove factor. Although Ben and others were brought up, that was not the intention of the post. None of us play like Ben or Victor. But we can add soul to our lines and I was asking about mental and physical (technique) approaches to this.
I love some of Wes Montgomery's intro vamps. He grooves like a mofo. Stevie Wonder and Eddie Van Halen have it. Michael Hedges and Bobby McFerrin have it. Virtuosity perhaps but feel, expression and forward momentum is what I'm searching for.
How do we tap, strum, punch, pop, smack and choreograph our fingers on strings to get this forward momentum. To swing, cook, groove, burn, cook...you know the words. How do we accomplish these useful concepts
That's all. Simple question. Complex answers
Steve A

Groove seems almost like a medal that needs to be earned. (fuck that sounded cliche, and I now despise myself for saying it). Some cats earn it early, some never do.....we all know players that have been at it for 20 yrs but never get that click or spark. I like to think I played with groove as a bass player, but I certainly havent captured it with the Stick yet. Still trying to figure out "why the fat string is in the middle".....

Can you all imagine where this instrument is going to be in 100 yrs? Its gonna be frickin' amazing. I pray (no I dont,.......filthy atheist) that the Stick will be around for centuries,......wouldnt that be cool? We are all here in the beginning to witness it and that in itself is amazing.

So go forth and propagate your groove Stick friends. If I can offer one tip from a relative newb..........practice with a metronome, not always, but enough to know that your rock solid, atomic clock meter that you thought you had, actually really sucks..."
You cant grooove if your meter is shit, so you gots to get that in check.......my 2 cents..

cheers,
kev

Kev, really enjoying your posts, very humorous and insightful.

As Stick players the job of each hand is fairly complex. We have to free them up from each other by giving them something else to relate to. In my opinion this is an essential element of developing a good groove, regardless of the style of music you are performing.

So regarding the metronome, absolutely. And these days we have very sophisticated ones called drum machines and sample loops, where our hands can relate to a more syncopated groove but still keep a constant tempo. I spent several years performing with drum machines in Code Magenta, Sticks and Stones, and even at solo gigs. It was great training.

When you're performing, you may not have such a device. Where is the time then? In your body, somewhere. It can be your foot, your head, your whole body in motion, chew gum like Dennis Chambers or Carter Beauford, any physical movement that will give your hands something to relate to besides each other. That is the key.

So when you are using your metronomic device, don't forget your body clock, always on. Always.

You external time base is the essential groove element. Without it, you can fu-ged-a-bout-it.

You can see this idea in action on my DVD and in this video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qresoGB8Ryo[/youtube]

Even though I'm tapping my foot, my whole body is also involved.

...

Guidance is available.
Steve

OK. I'm one of the drummers in this forum so groove is like breathing and I live for it.

But what is it and how to cultivate it? Many people, especially younger drummers on different forums want to deconstruct this topic to the point where they eliminate the feel aspect, almost as if they're hoping they don't have to deal with their emotions. Modern music has encouraged this attitude to an extent, yet modern facilities can help us develop groove, but I digress.

Take one groove, a shuffle at say 90 bpm. "Dum ta Dum ta"

The notes themselves don't make the groove. You could play the very same notes with rhythmic accuracy but totally divorce yourself from any expression, but you wouldn't have a groove. This is something I do with drum students. I play a shuffle with a bored ridiculous look on my face, then I play the same groove with a long pulse, accents tone production and attitude. The contrast makes it clear to everyone what groove is.

Groove starts with tempo. Tempo is a carrier wave for the attitude and expression of the groove. That also implies that groove and tempo are interconnected. The notes of any groove articulate and bring the tempo and rhythm to life. If I'm sitting at the drum stool ready to count in a song, my first thing is getting the tempo. Tempo will convey the right pacing for the rhythmic aspects of all the parts, especially vocals. You can extend that idea towards the kind of phrasing you want in the melody side of Stick.

I don't make a distinction between groove and feel.

Back to the shuffle. You can take the same tempo and same notes but give it a different pulse for each version of that groove . Pushing it might mean that I accent the 1 2 3 4 a lot more to give the notes more "front" and attack and/or shorten the attack on each note. It's like I'm trying to compress the notes with my timing and tone production. Hanging off the beat more opens out the pulse, makes it more relaxed and might be associated with long tones and a longer sense of pulse.

It's the same thing that Bob C teaches about long tones, but long tones alone don't make the groove. Not taking anything away from Bob here...

SO what's the clincher? Groove is a combination of all these things but it's how I occupy the space between the notes with my attitude and expression and rhythmic body language, that creates the groove. It's the same thing that different folk have said about a band groove being a combination of all the players creating a combined sound according to their placement and internal pulse.

Shuffle pulse is often Push and Release, like skimming a rock over a lake, but that might also be Jazz...

This doesn't quite address the articulations and physical approaches to Stick that Lee Vatip is concerned with but it's a start, or continued story. "Flash".

This should help...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfWpUvtJhs[/youtube]