So far, in my own attempts at coming up with a really funky groove on the Stick, I find that I can involve both hands on either side, or one hand on each side fairly simply if I am playing with a group. Solo, the same funky groove, whether functioning in the bass register or taking more of a guitarist or pianist(like maybe Steely Dan or Garaj Mahal for piano examples) approach ends up sounding a bit skeletal or even empty sounding.

I keep working on it because music that grooves, rather than the arpeggiated left hand accompaniment to right hand soloing(example-Greg's "Del Mar") is closer to my heart and ear. That is in no way meant to diminish the beauty and musicality of that style of play or the song "Del Mar", which does groove in its way, though I can't see myself dancing to it. Also we all have seen Greg groove the heck out of his instruments even in an improvisational context.

My own shortcoming seems to be that I need to simplify(or compromise, I would even say) the melody side whether doing chords or soloing in almost direct relation to how funky the bass side is. Playing bass notes on the off or weaker beats, sometimes dividing even 16 notes or smaller into uneven triplets, which absolutely makes the groove to me, really messes with my timing trying to add chords or melody with the other hand.

Can't wait til I am there though. "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming"--Dori the fish

Mike the fish

PS. A later thought that comes to mind is the fact that many people would say it doesn't need to be complicated to groove. To which I will answer, "Yeah but I like complicated grooves and I would rather keep trying till I get it how I want it to sound."

Fike the mish

Greg...with all due respect....silly question???
It's not silly to get players to think, explore and be a little inteospective. Not a judgement on anyone's playing style. Its an agenda beyond notes and chords. Indeed that's what Mr. Lacy has achieved to great success. I've played and recorded with Ben on numerous occasions. This upping the musical ante is what makes the quest gratifying.
Steve

Esteban, As always, you ask a provocative question. I just don't think it was the right question. to me that would be:

"How do we develop and enhance our groove."

the concept is not silly, but to me the way the question is phrased, is.



Of course not. No instrument has been explored "enough".



Beyond notes and chords? absolutely. That's why I think everyone should be studying technique first and foremost. Technique is the way beyond notes and chords.

I stand by my suggestion. Look at any musician who's got a good groove. The body is involved. Moving is how we feel the relationship of what we are playing to the music as a whole, it's how all musicians who really groove feel that relationship.

As Stick players we tend to worry too much about what our fingers are doing, which leads to no groove... I groove best when I am in motion.

A key element for me is hand movement, especially in the form of ghost notes, which I don't play with just my finger, but with my hand as well. This creates space, which is a key element of a good groove, n'est-ce pas?



Thanks for that, Mike. I'd be the first to say my groove could be more groovin', but it's nice to hear that you are getting something out of what I'm playing.

In my read of Steve's post, it seems he's asking: Where are the examples of Stick players in music that fits the typical groove styles, I.e.: Jazz (in its various forms), funk, even blues? There are some, but not many I've found.

I think asking whether Stick players have explored this enough yet is valid. Greg's chastisement was really unnecessary and seemed more interested in shutting down the conversation. Or hijacking it for his own purposes.

Classical and ambient musics are a more logical first step for many of us. Music with high groove potential requires playing with feel, with solid syncopations, and often with an element of improvisation. This is something that is gained thru experience, so it's not typically the first style someone starts out playing on the Stick unless one comes to it what a solid background.

Good question, Steve.

Randy

Oy. With the simple header "food for thought" I never thought controversy could develop. As a teacher/elder statesman and still very much a student of The Stick, it seems to be a productive path to be introspective and provocative about the varied aspects of our creative musical journey. That's all.
Steve A

As to this question, I think the answer to how they achieve it so instinctively lies in the relative ease of rhythmic additives to a more simplistic musical idea that guitarists and bassists have access to, that frankly we don't. Ten minutes with an acoustic guitar and a pick or finger nails(ex-Ben Lacy) will show you how this is true(but also why it can be harder to stand out as an individualist, see also Ben Lacy). One hand slave to the other creates a situation that is sometimes limiting and sometimes advantageous. One can play an actual beat on a guitar or bass without playing a note. This can be also achievable on the Stick, just takes more effort to sound about the same. Still we can do things on the Stick with relative ease that a guitar player or bassist would have to work much harder for.

Depends on what you want to do. I will work harder for what I lose playing the bass to gain what is more intuitive to play on the Stick.
Still, no matter how the original question is asked, the challenge should definitely be accepted!

Tike fhe mhish

Vincent Warren makes everything groove. He is definitely at the top of my list of grooving Stick players.

I couldn't pick just one video, so this link goes to all his videos.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEQJ_o ... 0tQ/videos

Steve, if I misinterpreted your question, I apologize. I know you are a careful wordsmith, and I thought I was taking it at face value.. I'm sure we would agree that people should pursue whatever music moves them...regardless of how hard it grooves.

For some the groove is innate, whether they are bassists, guitarists, drummers, pianists, whatever. There are plenty of un-grooving musicians on all of these instruments, it's not innate to the instruments in question, it's what the musician brings to the instrument, amplified through learning and practice. Listen, dance, sing, move. Don't worry about your fingers. As far as the groove goes, they are completely unimportant. They are merely contact points between your body and the instrument. They just have to land on the notes you want to hear. It's what the hands, arms, torso, head legs and feet do that counts.

Hi Randy,

What purposes would those be? So far I'm the only person that's given you an answer on how to get there. If the question was Socratic, then I'm sure we'll get Steve's take on it soon, and I look forward to it, and will try out whatever he suggests.

I answered the question with what was taught to me by my friend John D'earth. I've been playing with him for almost as long as I've ben playing the Stick. He's studied jazz and Latin music for decades, playing for years with people like Tito Puente. He's studied Cuban and Hatian dance, and learned from tap dancers about syncopation and groove. Have you ever watched a horn section in a Latin band? Do.

Get your body into it. Don't just stand there playing with your fingers. I have no desire to shut down the conversation. I'm all ears. Maybe Steve has an idea he wants to share with us. I hope so.

Watch Jim Lampi play, he's on the move
Watch Kevin Keith play, same thing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox2yPHlLr1s

It's so simple... If you wants to groove, you gots to move. I don't really think there is another answer, but, as always, I'm happy to be shown alternatives, because that's how I learn.

Any other answers out there.

It seems to me that Greg derives all of his musicianship from a thesis which is, at least to him, axiomatic. As such, he can be quite dogmatic—he simply "comes from a different place," to a very strong degree. This should never shut down a conversation, and I have never interpreted Greg's actions as intending to do so.

Regarding Steve's original question, I think the only way to improve a groove is to separate the groove from the method. The object is to groove and play, not play a groove.

Totally, Russell. His CD "Sweet Toof" is truly killin....