The "Hush-Hush" thread got a little OT--I had originally drafted this in response to some of the "cheap tapper" debate going on in that thread, but really feel this dialogue warrants a separate thread.

At it's price point, the Stick family of instruments really are at the "boutique," or "custom" level. There's more expensive instruments out there, for sure, but when you break $2k for an instrument you usually can expect a high degree of customization possibilities, and of course every instrument is hand-crafted and set up by highly skilled luthiers. SE's instruments are no exception.

By design, this usually means small volume production, long lead times, and a smaller market segment. It's not a bad thing, just a market reality.

I doubt we'll see a "entry-level" Stick anytime soon, because SE would have to risk outsourcing to be able to achieve the economies of scale necessary to get the price point down. This risks compromising SE's reputation for both build quality and customer service considerably.

Emmett also pointed out in that thread how critical proper set-up is for such an instrument. Limited craftsmen in the field again dictates high production costs and low production runs.

Here's where I don my flamesuit. Aside from questionable business ethics practices on the part of some SE "wannabees," I, for one, don't see what the huge fuss is about when alternative manufacturers try to develop less expensive instruments that emulate Emmett's highly ergonomic and flexible style of playing.

FACT: Every single one of the instruments that leave SE is going to ring with the kind of quality you would expect from a boutique instrument in that price range--actually, it's surprising they aren't more expensive in some ways.

FACT: *No* manufacturer is going to come close to creating something that plays as well and easily as one of SE's creations for less money. It's clearly a labor of love for the SE people--no amount of economies of scale or outsourcing can compete with that.

Why are these facts important?

I myself got into tapping on a (loaned) Megatar, which my friend wouldn't have bought if it weren't as relatively inexpensive as it was. The instrument was good enough to open my eyes into the world of tapping instruments, which let to my purchase of an NS/Stick. Because the technique is different enough to cause pause for a "traditional" style player, though, I would never even have considered owning any of SE's instruments without having the opportunity to "try out" the technique first.

Clearly, there were things about this less-expensive instrument that didn't appeal to me--but it was the first "Bass" I had played in 20 years that I could play without pain. That opened my eyes into a better, more flexible, more ergonomic method of playing...a method that explodes with a myriad different expressive possibilities.

So I'm sorry, perhaps I'm the odd man out, but I owe not the practice, but the discovery of this new musical era of my life to a "cheap tapper." Clearly, I could discern there were better options out there--and after I was comfortable with the technique concept, I had no problem making the additional investment.

....But I had to get comfortable with the idea first.

I honestly think that if there were more "cheap tappers" out there, the whole genre of Stick Music would become broader and more widely known over time. SE would gain nothing but benefit, since the more advanced players would naturally gravitate to the best instruments in the Genre.

Some people may never "upgrade," but they would still be new initiates into the Genre, would still be listening (and purchasing) Stick Music, would still be telling their friends about it.

So, I'd like your thoughts/respectful debate regarding the availability of "cheap tappers," and the overall growth and awareness of both tapping playing methods and the eclectic musical styles that grow from these methods.

*IMPORTANT NOTE* I would like this thread to remain focused on the economic realities of cheap tapping instruments, market diversification as a whole, and on how Genres/styles can grow from what can effectively be called a "niche market."

This would be an interesting discussion to me (and I hope others), that unfortunately has never been able to be effectively discussed, since invariably one of "those manufacturers" comes up, and the thread then derails into an unproductive flame holy war.

There are other places in this forum to directly discuss existing competitors/business practices/copyright infringement/grievances/flame wars/etc. Please help to keep the thread on-topic and make those comments elsewhere.

I don't think there has ever been a complaint against cheap tappers, in fact I think they're welcomed.

As I understand it the problem is that the cheap tappers have historically incorrectly associated themselves with the Stick brand, trademarks, and patented technologies.

The other issue is that Emmett's point is that he didn't invent an instrument - he invented a method of playing (Free Hands) and the Stick is a vehicle for that method to be expressed. Most of the cheap tapping instruments out there do not make free hands possible (mostly due to their large sizes).

So in summary: If the cheap tappers can create and market their products without diluting or harming the Stick brand and other intellectual property, they are welcome to compete in the marketplace.

As I understand it.

BTW, your rant wasn't very flamey or ranty. It seemed like a very well posed question to me.

I don't have any problems with other brands of tappers.
I do have a problem with the advertisement style.
It doesn't really change the product any, but it does make me want the product less.
Also, watching the creators of both instruments play, really makes me like the less expensive product less.

I've seen "cheap tappers" in action and I really don't have any problem with the instrument. But mentioned reasons make me not so interested.
Really, as long as everybody *plays nice* multiple brands are good for the progression of musical instruments. If one product is better, history will remember it... But I think history is more likely to remember tapping instruments if there are more of them.
I really don't think SE is at any risk, but I do completely understand any frustration due to other businesses, particularly advertising techniques.

As for me. Money is tight. I can't afford instruments of both brands. I'd rather save and buy a top of the line instrument. Might be different if there was a version that was much much much cheaper, but there isn't one that cheap.

I'll sit back and watch this thread with interest.

Two things, though.

1. Free Hands doesn't have anything to do with the width of the fretboard, it just means tapping with your fingers of both hands lined up with the frets instead of having the right hand's fingers lined up parallel with the strings (DeArmond, Webster, Bunker). With the exception of the Harpeeji and Bunker's Touch Guitar (it's his trademark after all), all the rest of the dedicated tapping instruments out there use Free Hands as their basic method.

What makes it Free Hands is that each hand has an equal role on the fretboard, and the fingers line up with the frets. The fact that these other instruments might be too wide to play "crossed" comfortably is one thing. Uncrossed or crossed, it's still Free Hands.

2. At what point does a bad fretboard become a real hindrance? I'd suggest that it would be better for everyone who wants to be a two-handed tapper to spend their time playing keyboards for a few years and then get a well-made tapping instrument, than for them to struggle with badly made tapping instruments. Or get a cheap guitar with a pretty straight neck, and start working on tapping with that (6 strings was good enough for Stanley Jordan, and he's playing Free Hands).

There are people on this board who have bought some of the really cheap instruments out there. There's a thread called Knockoffs that might shed some light on how bad things can be for the unsuspecting buyer.

What would you cheapen on a Stick to make it cost less?

fewer strings? (fewer possibilities)
cheaper body construction? (gotta have a flat board, or else)
smaller size? (cuts down on the range)
cheaper pickups?
(tapping produces a soft vibration, lousy pickups will mean noisy, lousy sound)
non-adjustable hardware?
(if you can't adjust the action to compensate for changing conditions you will
have dead strings or very high action.
cheaper tuners? (it's a lot of strings to keep in tune)
let's not forget those pesky lifting conventional guitar frets....

Looking forward to where this goes. Try to be practical, not just about the cost, but about what inspires people to do something, and what will make them give up.

It's not called "Hands Struggling to be Free." The method has to work easily, or there's really no point.

We're after music here, not novelty.

I've played a Warr guitar. It was a beautiful instrument. I can see why people are drawn to them.
However, I couldn't play it like a stick. Perhaps If I had more time. But the weight distribution was different so my technique suffered especially in my left hand.

My first stick was a knockoff I bought almost 30 years ago. There was this bass builder who had a friend with an early stick. He couldn't afford one so he built one. When he got the money for a real one I bought his fake. Boy it was impossible to play. It really turned me off to tapping for almost 20 years. I later got the itch again bought a used stick and loved it!

I wish I had never tried that "instrument" I wish I had started 30 years ago with a stick.

So......... I'm a guy who really likes inclusion. I see nothing wrong with other instrument builders as long as they give credit where it is due. But I know first hand how lousy instruments can affect someone negatively. I too wish that we could get Sticks into the hands of younger folks, and that more sticks were available.

So How did the Megatar compare to your stick? I haven't tried one I just can't stomach the negative propaganda.

To stay on topic I'm all for a less expensive instument as long as it is playable, and if it's not Emmett's then it has to respect copyrights and such.

Brett

That's the thing I've pondered more than once. Getting instruments in the hands of lots of younger folks requires affordability. The more people who are tapping, the more progress you'll see.

I have no idea how to make an instrument, so I'm not the one to figure out how to make it happen. But I've pondered it.

My 2 cents.
Gidday from New Zealand...
As a Lurker for about 15 months I make my first post!
I have modified a guitar (tuned to c# and straight 4ths) and worked on technique for about 12 months now... there is plenty to do in the independence side yet, let alone just getting the right hand to fret a note and playing basic scales....
I have tried a stick..... That particular experience nearly put me off for good: primarily as it was an older model and tuned in 5ths, *really* old strings and not great setup (the owner used it as a "tap bass" and seemed reasonably happy) " I could feel that it wasn't right... but was drawn back to the Stick nonetheless...
The bottom line is I am willing to wait, (save up etc ) happy to work on co-ordination with two hands and look forward to the day that I can have a well setup instrument to explore the technique further.
Bad setup and poor quality instruments will put anyone off... but there are many paths for us all, and if people find the way into the tapping world they would need to be either deaf or blind to not find out about the Stick....
- not to mention all of the helpful and friendly people who frequent stickist!!!

SO.... put me down as an aspiring owner... not willing to compromise on quality OR the "real thing"

Andrew

I'll help out with this one. I purchased two Megatars from a fellow who has some notoriety with the instrument. I got a good deal on them and I figured that I could resell them for what I paid if things didn't work out. I agree that you have to play SOMETHING Stick-like to know whether it's your deal or not.

Here's my take on the Megatar:

One of the Megatars had Bartolini pickups and sounded very good. The other one had cheap-ish guitar humbuckers and sounded adequate.

Point: Stick. The Stickup kills even the Barts in terms of response and tone.

The necks were bolt-on, and this causes a change in the structure of the neck where it joins the body. The guitars have dual truss rods but were hard to adjust to low and straight action.

Point: Stick. The one-piece design of the Stick makes the setup simple and easy.

The nuts have an interesting design with sawtooth slots that works well but the zero fret is not adjustable.

Point: Stick. Any stick except the very oldest has adjustability far surpassing the Megatar. Tapping action at the 1 or X fret is better on the Stick. On Sticks with nut screws like mine, the 6th string nut screw is designed to accommodate larger strings only, so some tunings aren't possible. Newer Sticks with Flaps don't suffer from this, though.

The damper is the Warr-style with the rubber fabric damper woven through the strings. It's effective but the first fret is hard to tap.

Point: Stick. Who would have thought that the fuzzy side of Velcro would be so perfect for this?

The bridges are Stratocaster-style fixed units with height-adjustable saddles. The saddle screws are very long, presumably to enable extra range for intonation. However, the screws interfere with inserting the strings into the saddles. If I were to keep one of the Megatars, I will replace the intonation screws with shorter ones.

Point: Stick. Any Stick with the modern adjustable bridge can be set up to use any string gauge, and is easy to string. I found the Megatar to be difficult to set up and couldn't use a string bigger than 0.100".

The Megatar has guitar frets, like the oldest Ironwood sticks. To my knowledge, the first Sticks with Rods were the polycarbonate models in the '80s. You can't drive a fret tang into a slot on a polycarbonate fretboard, so Emmett came up with Rods. Simple and effective, and it differentiates the instrument further from its guitar forebears.

Point: Stick. The guitar frets are prone to lifting and don't give that solid clank that you get from Rods or Rails.

The strap system is actually quite good, and it's simple and adjustable. I am pretty tall and I have a hard time getting the Stick to sit high enough on my belt. The Megatar strap is good, but it doesn't maintain the angle of the neck as easily as the

Point: Tie. I like them both a lot, but you can't bend over with EITHER of them strapped on...

The base model Megatar costs about $1600. The base model Stick costs about $1900. In at least one way, you get LESS with the Stick - less wood anyway.

Point: Stick. The Stick is made in the USA, the Megatars are made in Korea. There's nothing wrong with Korean guitars, I own a few. But to price an imported instrument only 15% lower than its American counterpart seems greedy.

Used prices vary all over the place, but I generally see Ironwood Sticks selling in the $750-1100 range, hardwood Sticks in the $1300-$1700 range, and newer Sticks selling for north of $2000 depending on features. Adjustable bridges seem to add a lot of resale value.

Take all this for what it's worth - I love my Stick and don't plan to sell it any time soon, but I've already sold one Megatar and am seriously thinking of selling the other one. I would love to see a sub-$1000 Stick, but I don't think that's feasible for SE. Let's face it, they have backorders, which means they can sell everything they can produce. They have no reason to reduce their prices, and they probably couldn't keep up with increased demand. Any changes made to the Stick now are to make it better (the 4-way truss rod is a case in point,) or to make it less expensive to manufacture (increasing profits.)

Emmett has this whole thing wired, and that's all right by me. I now wish that I had just bought a Stick first and not bothered with the Megatars...

I've played the 3 main ones: Stick, Warr, and Megatar. Like I've said before, you can't quantify sound because that's just personal preference. The Warrs I've played were warmer sounding with less "chiminess" than the Stick, specifically the stickup. I like the sound of the Warr, but sound is a matter of taste. Good or bad, everyone has an opinion. The Megatars I've played sounded what I describe as being "hollow". A low end without the resonance. You can feel it on the perimeters but in the center its a dead calm.

You can, however, quantify playability. And this is why the Stick is a better instrument. The essence of the Stick is precision. You can see that in it's minimalism and in it's hardware structure.

The Warr and the Megatar feel like they were designed by guitar builders. The Stick feels like it was designed by an engineer.

And Emmett has a real jeweler's mentality when it comes to the fretwork and you can feel it as soon as you start playing.

The other two don't come close. Although I will say the Warr plays fine and also plays better than the Megatar. As far as I'm concerned both of them are badly designed but the Warrs are built well and with care. The Megatar feels and plays cheap to me.

Good luck to you.

Tritone

Fair question. Just so you know, I bought an NS, not a "Stick-proper," so it would perhaps be unreasonable to make as delightfully detailed and point-by-point comparison as pharaohamps just did. I will say this, though:

The Megatar was not "awful," nor was it "unplayable." I would have given up and stuck with tuba had that been the case.

The action on the Megatar was wonderfully low--and could be played very lightly. I didn't find setup a problem with this particular instrument. That said, my NS can be set up lower, and the action adjusted more easily.

The string spacing on the Megatar was too narrow for me--one reason I went to the wider spacing on the NS.

12 Strings was far too many--I only really used the bottom 6 most of the time. I'm finding 8 strings on the NS a perfect balance of string spacing, neck size, and range for me.

The Megatar was quite heavy, though the strap system did work very well. The NS is much lighter and better-balanced, and more flexible with respect to different instrument angles (which I do actually vary quite a bit). I do find myself wishing I could get the NS a bit more vertical, sometimes, without having to sit down and support it with my legs.

The adjustable string damper on the NS is pure genius--and I use it, since I do play a balance of tapping/traditional plucking techniques. Interesting thing though--I've noted a lot of people don't really like the effect a first-fret damper has on playing. I definitely agree that it does lessen playability somewhat. However, for me it was actually a plus, because not having open strings available during the several months I had the Megatar "forced" me to use my deeper hand positions, and get more intimate with the deeper interior parts of the fretboard. Contrived? Sure, but hey, it made me use my brain for a few months, and actually made be a better player, so now I have much better command *all over* the fretboard, now that I can have my open strings back.

The EMG FT active pickups on the NS definitely "rock the socks" off of the passive pickups on the Megatar. I do remember having "limited gain" issues with the Megatar. I don't understand why anyone would want to put passive pickups on a tapping instrument, though perhaps the PAS-pickup folks could enlighten me as to how it works on the Stick, apparently splendidly?

One thing I do really miss about the Megatar was the Feiten tuning system. I'm probably a weirdo about this but I'm not really a great fan of even temperament (my wife is even more interested in alternative temperaments--which is kind of funny because she's a pianist). Some chords across the instrument really do rub me a little bit the wrong way (yes, the instrument's tuned ). Maybe this is one reason one of my favorite effects patches is a very chorusy "Metheny-esque." The subtle pitch-bending of the patch perhaps "glosses over" the dissonances in some of those obviously-not-just-temperament chords, though by the patch is only trading one evil for another, really.