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 Physicality of the Stick 
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Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:00 am
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Post Physicality of the Stick
Hi Everyone!

Sorry the database is gone...what a drag! I'm sure that's one administrative headache to try to recover the media that's in there....no fun!

Anyway, one topic I wanted to ask the Stickists out there their suggestions and opinions on was optimal posture and hand position to minimize injuries.

My experience with the Stick over the last year and a half has been dotted with some unusual (for me) physical happenings that I found were mainly due to not quite understanding the optimal positioning for the Stick. I tend to play about an hour a day, every day.... and one thing I'm sure every Stickist experiences is neck pain from bending over to look at the frets to find your position...

Heres a few things I've picked up so far...

1. A guitarist pointed out to me that if you keep your left-hand elbow close to your body when in hand positions closer to the top of the instrument, you can keep your tendons relaxed and do less things that cause the sheath of your tendons to rub causing carpal tunnel and other bad things.

2. As soon as I started walking on the bass I found that keeping your elbow close was very tricky on the lowest frets and I was banging the web of my thumb trying to reach certain strings...causing a nasty condition called "trigger thumb".. this I solved by raising the stick higher by about 1 or 2 frets, which required playing those frets with your elbow extended...similar to the way I see Emmet playing up there. Only problem there was it can cause rotator cuff pain after awhile, which can indeed go away after a your muscles get used to it...

3. A lesson in May with Greg showed that keeping fingers parallel to the fret gave the best tone and "letting your fingers do the walking" around the board can be the safest thing for your fingers, by constantly shifting your hand position. However doing this causes more likelihood of "web abrasions" as you're more likely to occasionally hit the side of the instrument with the web between your thumb and forefinger, or abrasions on your thumb if you slide up and down the neck.

Like any guitar you can also get various trigger finger injuries by grasping the instrument.

So after all this... I finally found a few interesting answers.

One is - a technique called the Feldenkrais technique...which is a series of lessons where you learn to use your body in unusual ways. I showed a Feldenkrais instructor the Stick, who instantly noticed that my weight was always on my right foot when I played. She recommended shifting weight while I played and also using more "diagonal motion", and instead of repetitive motions, learning new motions and shifting continuously.

This one thought helped me enormously - "to avoid repetitive injury, change your positions regularly, learn what the possibilities of motion are... and improvise them as you go"...

By doing that I've managed to decrease a lot of pain of playing the stick and come up with interesting ideas like...

- Play in front of a mirror so you don't have to strain your neck to see the frets...

- Play as lightly as possible on the strings, but don't be afraid to alter pressure as you play.

- DO try to avoid getting your tendons in continuously strained positions... like pointing your hand down continuously when you play the higher bass frets WITHOUT lifting your elbow.

- Shift your weight while playing, don't stay in the same position...it also looks better on stage to move around a bit :-)

Anyway that's a few thoughts...any experiences?


Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:26 am
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
Hi,

I went from playing very sporadically, to playing for 3-5 hours almost daily when I started busking in February. Initially I developed a bit of pain in my right hand, but found that it started disappearing as I became more relaxed. There is no doubt that being comfortable with your posture and feeling relaxed when you play are extremely important aspects of playing any instrument. I've also found that being able to shift my weight from one foot to another is a great way to stay relaxed and not experience back pain, even after 4 hours of standing in the same spot with a Stick in my hands.

I agree with the notion that you have to learn to shift instead of constantly stretching, particularly in the lower register.

Bob Culbertson shared some fairly unique ideas with us during the Sydney Stick seminar. He believes that always keeping the instrument and your fingers in the same position can be detrimental to the point of causing RSI. This goes against the grain of many "traditional" teaching methods, which stress consistency in positioning your body and hands.
Bob happily moves his Stick around, sometimes angling it like a guitar and other times holding it almost vertically. He noted that several classical guitarists he knows have terrible hand problems due to "rigid" positioning.

Basically I look for ways to play what I want without hurting myself. If something feels wrong or painful, I think it needs to be examined before any damage is done.

Cheers,
Andy

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Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:21 am
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
Hi Andy,

Great post! As it turns out, I am currently in massage school, graduating April 2008, and I am writing a book for musicians to prevent and treat Repetitive Strain Injuries (RSI's). While I am a noob on the Stick, I have played guitar for 19 years, bass for 17, and been an avid computer geek for almost just as long. So I was a case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome waiting to happen.

Anyway, I did want to mention a couple of ergonomic things that I see with the Stick. I can't post much right now as I am about to head out drive to NC for the Holidays.

1.) You're concern about bending the neck while playing is something i have noticed with a lot of Stick players. Myself included. This will cause a lot of pain down the road. While one may think that they need to rub the tight, overstretched muscles in the back of the neck to relieve pain, it's actually the over-contracted muscles in the front of the neck, (sternocleidomastoid, scalenes, and others), that need massage. I'll write about how to do this to yourself in a future post.

The suggestion to play in front of a mirror was a good one. Here is another, play with a blindfold on. I do that all the time on guitar to break me of the habit of looking down at the fretboard while playing live. We even did this a couple of times in massage school. Learn to see with your ears and hands.

2). Ulnar-deviation in the right hand. This is when you tilt your wrist to the right while keeping it on the same plane as the arm. A perfect example is Don Schiff in the new SB8 video on Stick.com. This is bad, band playing technique and will lead to pain down the road. Keeping a straighter wrist while playing will be healthier. (I'll explain the pain pattern that develops from Ulnar deviation in that future post.)

3) It's not so much the elbow positions that will cause Carpal Tunnel Syndrome pain, it's the overuse of the Flexor muscles in the forearm. This are used a lot in tapping. The key to prevent and treat that, stop frequently and takes breaks to stretch! (Actually, there is self-massage you can do. Again, next post.)

That's not to say that they way that you hold your arms will won't effect various muscles with different pain referral patterns. But I'll save that for a full post. Actually, I plan to have a section on the Chapman Stick, and other tapping instruments, in my book that I am writing. Any NYC/NNJ based Stickists want to be the model for the picture in that section? (I can only include so many pics of myself.) Also, I hope to be able to come to future Stick seminars to give a clinic of the treatment and prevention of RSI's.

I have a great article up on my site, http://www.painfreemusician.com, about RSI's. And I wrote an article about treating RSI's of the wristhere.

Ok, off to pack. Happy Tapping All, and to All a Good Night!!

Musically yours,
Jim O'Gara
Teak #934, 10 String


Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:11 am
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
Hi Charles,

I'm afraid you came away from the lesson with the wrong impression. So I'd like to offer some suggestions.

First, I never advocate keeping the fingers perfectly parallel with the fest, unless that hand alignment fits the line of attack of the chord or pattern you are playing.

If you look at any of the photos in my book you will see a wide variety of hand angles, all facilitated by raising an lowering the elbow.

The web of my hand is almost never in contact with the edge of the board, so I think you have your thumb way too far behind the fretboard if that's a problem (there are photos of thumb positioning in the book as well.

The best tone comes from playing just behind the fret, and using hand energy to make the notes vibrate, not just finger energy alone.

It's high time for me to get some short technique videos up on these subjects.... Stay tuned...

Thanks to Manny for getting the forum back online. I plan to archive threads with significant info for future reference should such an event happen again.

Happy Tapping,
Greg

Quote:
3. A lesson in May with Greg showed that keeping fingers parallel to the fret gave the best tone and "letting your fingers do the walking" around the board can be the safest thing for your fingers, by constantly shifting your hand position. However doing this causes more likelihood of "web abrasions" as you're more likely to occasionally hit the side of the instrument with the web between your thumb and forefinger, or abrasions on your thumb if you slide up and down the neck.

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Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:41 am
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
Wow, terrific replies...I'm learning a lot...

Andy - that's interesting about changing the angle of the stick from time to time. I have noticed when comping chords in LH and playing in RH that playing angled is easier than straight up/down and vice versa when playing walking bass. I'll have to try it out more in both ways...

Jim - the Ulnar deviation was the first thing that guitarist pointed out to me, he happened to be an osteopath as well. If you find out anything interesting about injury prevention while learning the Stick, please do let everyone know!

Greg - Videos would be really great! I've been watching videos of you, Emmet, Bob, and a bunch of YouTube and I've never been able to figure out a logical formula for positioning

For one thing, I think you have the best tone of any Chapman player I've ever heard, bar none, so the way you're using your hand and finger energy must be spot on.

Any ideas about neck craning? Or you just don't look anymore?


Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:06 pm
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
Oh one other thought...

I did notice that there are stick players like Emmet, Tony and Greg who are kinda on the thin side.

I admit...I'm 30 pounds overweight and my belly hits the back of the stick when belted.

That makes placing my right hand behind the stick tricky...which is a shame because I love the tone.

I guess...I should lose the 30 pounds, but any ideas about how to get the thing away from your tummy?


Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:09 pm
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
cguerin wrote:
I guess...I should lose the 30 pounds, but any ideas about how to get the thing away from your tummy?

I would like to add some encouragement here. I have played the Stick for almost a year and during that same time I lost 40 pounds. As the weight came off the angle of my Stick changed and it became much more comfortable to play. If this is something that you want to do then I recommend giving it a try. You will be healthier and happier. I wish I had done it long ago.

-Eric

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Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:59 pm
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
Hi Jim,

I think there were some things in your post that may be based on an understanding of Stick playing that's coming from a place of limited experience with the instrument. The method is substantially different from guitar, so be careful what you assume.

You are right about neck bending. I learned how the fretboard feels, not how it looks, so neck craning isn't a problem. There was a period of time in the late 1980s where I had some discomfort, but it came from holding my left arm in a funny way as I played both keyboards and Stick with either hand at any time. A couple of Alexander Technique lessons did the trick and I've never had a problem since.

With regards to Don's video, Don's been playing Stick longer than almost anyone, so I think he would know if the kind of thing he was doing there would be causing him discomfort. What you are saying might be fine, in theory, but I think you should ask Don what his experience has been before you assume it's necessarily a problem.

Ergonomically, the Stick is a completely different animal from the guitar or bass.

It's also substantially different ergonomically from other tapping instruments, so please be careful not to generalize about the method and how it applies.

Generate the vibrating energy by moving your arms and hands, and take the work away from your fingers, and you'll be fine.

Happy tapping,
greg

PainFreeMusician wrote:
Hi Andy,

Great post! As it turns out, I am currently in massage school, graduating April 2008, and I am writing a book for musicians to prevent and treat Repetitive Strain Injuries (RSI's). While I am a noob on the Stick, I have played guitar for 19 years, bass for 17, and been an avid computer geek for almost just as long. So I was a case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome waiting to happen.

Anyway, I did want to mention a couple of ergonomic things that I see with the Stick. I can't post much right now as I am about to head out drive to NC for the Holidays.

1.) You're concern about bending the neck while playing is something i have noticed with a lot of Stick players. Myself included. This will cause a lot of pain down the road. While one may think that they need to rub the tight, overstretched muscles in the back of the neck to relieve pain, it's actually the over-contracted muscles in the front of the neck, (sternocleidomastoid, scalenes, and others), that need massage. I'll write about how to do this to yourself in a future post.

The suggestion to play in front of a mirror was a good one. Here is another, play with a blindfold on. I do that all the time on guitar to break me of the habit of looking down at the fretboard while playing live. We even did this a couple of times in massage school. Learn to see with your ears and hands.

2). Ulnar-deviation in the right hand. This is when you tilt your wrist to the right while keeping it on the same plane as the arm. A perfect example is Don Schiff in the new SB8 video on Stick.com. This is bad, band playing technique and will lead to pain down the road. Keeping a straighter wrist while playing will be healthier. (I'll explain the pain pattern that develops from Ulnar deviation in that future post.)

3) It's not so much the elbow positions that will cause Carpal Tunnel Syndrome pain, it's the overuse of the Flexor muscles in the forearm. This are used a lot in tapping. The key to prevent and treat that, stop frequently and takes breaks to stretch! (Actually, there is self-massage you can do. Again, next post.)

That's not to say that they way that you hold your arms will won't effect various muscles with different pain referral patterns. But I'll save that for a full post. Actually, I plan to have a section on the Chapman Stick, and other tapping instruments, in my book that I am writing. Any NYC/NNJ based Stickists want to be the model for the picture in that section? (I can only include so many pics of myself.) Also, I hope to be able to come to future Stick seminars to give a clinic of the treatment and prevention of RSI's.

I have a great article up on my site, http://www.painfreemusician.com, about RSI's. And I wrote an article about treating RSI's of the wristhere.

Ok, off to pack. Happy Tapping All, and to All a Good Night!!

Musically yours,
Jim O'Gara
Teak #934, 10 String

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Happy tapping, greg
Schedule an online Stick lesson


Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:57 pm
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
cguerin wrote:
Wow, terrific replies...I'm learning a lot...

Greg - Videos would be really great! I've been watching videos of you, Emmet, Bob, and a bunch of YouTube and I've never been able to figure out a logical formula for positioning

For one thing, I think you have the best tone of any Chapman player I've ever heard, bar none, so the way you're using your hand and finger energy must be spot on.

Any ideas about neck craning? Or you just don't look anymore?

Hi Charles,

That's about the nicest thing any musician can hear, so my thanks to you for such a kind comment. I do believe that tone is deeply connected to technique, and it's one of the reasons why I spend so much time teaching technique.

And except when I make a terrible mistake and can't "hear" my way out of it, I just don't look.
I play most of the time with my eyes closed, which makes it possible for me to "visualize" both hands. If I were to look, I could only see one at a time:)

Learn how the fretboard feels, and also how it looks.

more to come.

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Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:08 pm
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Post Re: Physicality of the Stick
Greg,

I give total respect to you, Don and all the other experienced Stick players. And yes, I do defer to y'all skill and experience.

That said, prolonged ulnar deviation is prolonged ulnar deviation no matter what activity you are doing, what instrument your playing, or where you're generating the energy for the note creation. Even if you are using the muscles of your arm and body to generate the energy for the note, holding your wrist in that position for a long time will cause pain down the road. I may not have played violin since I was ten, but as student of anatomy and kineseology I can easily see that the scalene neck muscles of the left side will be chronically contracted from holding the violin. I don't need to become a master player of the violin to see this. I just need to know the human body.

Yes, I'll admit I didn't ask Don on his technique as a whole. Perhaps this is the only song that he ulnar deviates his wrist. Perhaps he counteracts the prolonged contraction of the ulnar side flexor and extensor muslces and the over-extended radial side flexors and extensors and wrist ligaments with a daily and vigorous yoga routine. So yes, I should have emailed Don first because making a statement that sounded that I was making a comment on his technique as a whole after watching just this one video.

And I'm not saying Don has experienced any pain yet from holding his wrist that way. What I will say is that the odds of encountering pain from prolonged ulnar deivation increases the chance of pain occuring substantially. Doublefold, perhaps triplefold. You own story about correcting your playing posture, thereby elimanating pain, is exactly the sort of thing I am writing about in my book.

And yes, I do see that the Stick has a level of ergonomics that is greater than just about any instrument I've seen, and very different than the guitar and bass. I am very excited about exploring this as I learn more on the Stick. Also, I do acknowledge actually playing a Stick is different from watching every single video that exists on the web of the Stick as well as watching you, Steve Adelson, and other Stickists, perform live at Stick Night NYC this past spring. (And watching you perform at the Bottom Line when you opened up for Niacin. I've seen Steve A. perform live 2 other times as well.)

Even if we are using our arms and bodies, and not our fingers, to generate the energy, there is much we can do to prevent pain and injury. (Such as being aware of how often we have our neck held down, how often our hands are in extended radial or extreme deviation.) Many of us aren't just Stickists. I wish I could just play the Stick for a number of hours a day and that's it. Many of us do other things, like typing long posts on message boards. ;-) The strain we put on our bodies, playing our instruments and doing other activities, is cumulative. You'd be amazed about how much strain the average person puts on their shoulder muscles in the course of day.

Therefore, proper technique, which you advocate, (and after watching every video you have, Greg, and studying your body mechanics, I have to say you have great posture while playing) combined with self-awareness of the body in motion and preventative self-care, (breaks, stretching and self-massage) we'll have long lives of music creation. There are some instrument ergonomics that can't be changed, (ex. the extended lateral flexion of the next to the left of the violinist). So then the instrumentalist needs to learn the human body and work with it to keep themselves healthy and pain-free.

So yeah, I'm not arguing with you Greg. I agree with everything you've written in just about every posts. We both have similar goals. . .people playing their instrument, in this case Stick, better, longer and without any pain.

Musically yours,
Jim


greg wrote:
Hi Jim,

I think there were some things in your post that may be based on an understanding of Stick playing that's coming from a place of limited experience with the instrument. The method is substantially different from guitar, so be careful what you assume.

You are right about neck bending. I learned how the fretboard feels, not how it looks, so neck craning isn't a problem. There was a period of time in the late 1980s where I had some discomfort, but it came from holding my left arm in a funny way as I played both keyboards and Stick with either hand at any time. A couple of Alexander Technique lessons did the trick and I've never had a problem since.

With regards to Don's video, Don's been playing Stick longer than almost anyone, so I think he would know if the kind of thing he was doing there would be causing him discomfort. What you are saying might be fine, in theory, but I think you should ask Don what his experience has been before you assume it's necessarily a problem.

Ergonomically, the Stick is a completely different animal from the guitar or bass.

It's also substantially different ergonomically from other tapping instruments, so please be careful not to generalize about the method and how it applies.

Generate the vibrating energy by moving your arms and hands, and take the work away from your fingers, and you'll be fine.

Happy tapping,
greg



Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:21 pm
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