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 "Stick Piano" model...? 
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
I know we've strayed from your original post a bit but I'm finding this conversation really interesting.
greg wrote:
So as we read the staff, we can clearly see which notes are white keys, and which are black. What we can't see as easily on a keyboard is the pattern of intervals in absolute terms. This is easier to see on a fretboard instrument with a neutral tuning like The Sticks., where the geometry of musical intervals is quite clear.

This got me thinking about formal piano training and how it affects the way we think about music structure. When you start taking lessons on the piano the first pieces you learn are almost always in the key of C. All white keys. That's done, I think, because it's thought that this is easier than moving your fingers up and down off the black keys. But doing this also gets the idea in your head that somehow using the black keys is somehow "harder" and "more advanced." So then maybe you learn a piece in G major. One sharp. And a big deal is made over taking that finger that was playing the white F key and moving it to the F#. Also, now you've got a key signature to remember. Whenever you see that F, it's now not an F but an F#. So then you go on to more and more accidentals and it feels more and more difficult.
So, for me, having this "neutral tuning" is definitely a step in the right direction. Granted, we're stuck with the grand staff if we want to read written music. And I must say, at least for the time being, that the Staff Tab notation is about as good as I can imagine for getting across everything you need to learn the Stick. I do have trouble with the rectangles that indicate the string. Especially in the left hand where it goes counter to the note that's being played. But these are easy to ignore once you don't need them.
mad_monk wrote:
When I started out playing Bach, only the fixed-bridge ten-string in classic tuning was available (if you put fourths in the bass, you had intonation problems and insufficient range). I used it for 11-12 years before getting a Grand in fourths and the difference was dramatic--not only were the left hand parts easier, requiring less frantic movement, but the coordination of the hands was instantly much better.

I can certainly understand how this tuning might make some music easier to play. Definitely easier if you're playing unison lines. Problem is, should you have multiple instruments with different tunings to play different kinds of music? I'm not sure how long it would take to train your hands and brain to make the shifts.
Claire wrote:
I actually like that the 5ths tuning makes me think about my two hands a bit differently. It's causing me to re-think how my hands can relate to each other musically and to try out ways to use them more independently.

I agree with Claire though. At least at the beginning stages of learning this instrument. I'm also coming from a composing and improvising background so discovering new ways to voice and orchestrate music will be more valuable than playing piano scores for me.


Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:44 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
greg wrote:
sagehalo wrote:
With the Stick, certainly music *could* be written in Grand Staff form, but the meaning is lost as to where to play. Here, Greg's book uses a semi-cumbersome form that adds that information back in. I mentioned previously that the chord diagrams confuse me as a LH bassist to Stick player. Tablature seems to work best for my mind, even though it loses some of the beauty of the Grand Staff.
Hi Daniel,

StaffTab is certainly dense, but as an instructional notation it gives the player everything they need to know. For more advanced work, I would remove the string markers, and that would make things easier to read. It's not really a critical piece of information anyway since each note can exist in only one string at a given fret.

The biggest weakness with tablature, of course, is that it doesn't convey rhythm, a pretty big omission in trying to convey a musical idea.

I think the Songbook iteration of StaffTab is more successful, because it is more succinct.


As far as Tab, when I was young and spending my parents' money on bass lessons, I had a teacher who combined rhythmic notation with the numbers on the tab lines - a far better approach than writing notes above the tab IMO. What is misses is fingering, which is far less intuitive when multiple notes are happening at the same time.

As far as your Songbook, darn, another thing on my wish list.

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Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:59 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
To no one in particular:

When I mentioned skills that transfer from piano, I was not talking about technique, but about experience with the grand staff, and maybe some knowledge of harmony. I should probably have said "music for the grand staff" instead of "piano music" in this discussion, but "Grand Staff Stick" sounds more pompous than "Stick Piano".

The study of counterpoint and functional harmony follows the development of vocal music, not keyboard music. If you want to study harmony, you have traditionally had two choices: get three friends to sing your homework with you, or play four parts on a piano. The Stick offers string players a third choice.


Mad Monk.

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Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:25 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
BSharp wrote:
As for academia, I've found most music department professors to be standoffish, even territorial, and seemingly lacking in normal curiosity about a stringed instrument that has the capacity to generate new music, even new music theory.

Yes, but they don't have any say as to what instrument a student uses to do his/her assignments. Very often a non-piano performance major will do the minimum piano work to graduate, because piano technique does not relate to their instrument. This is to the detriment of the theory studies that would have helped their performance skills. A string player could also slack off on piano and then use the Stick to do theory....


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Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:13 pm
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
Would these new learning materials be just music written out on the grand staff, or would it incorperate StaffTab concepts as well? In trying to learn to sight read, I have had a lot of trouble deciding where on the Stick to play the notes. Because of the redundancy, I mean. In fact, depending on which tuning you use you may have up to 6 or 8 possible places to play middle C. (or more, I don't have my Stick in front of me at the moment)

Does the SG 12, in mirrored 4ths, cut the choices down a little? I am not as familiar with how that one is set up.

Beyond the plotting of notes on the staff, there are also many dynamic techniques that are neither from piano or guitar history. Although you could still have examples of those written in the margins or illustrations, I suppose.

Lessons for melody with both hands instead of chords on at least one of the sides would definitely be a welcome change. Maybe the bulk of material out there now is written in the format that it is, so beginners can see some rapid early development instead of going insane and using their instruments for firewood.

Still, I definitely plan to aquire Bartok's Mikrokosmos soon, since you have recommended it so highly on several occasions.

Mike

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Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:39 pm
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
mike kemp wrote:
Would these new learning materials be just music written out on the grand staff, or would it incorperate StaffTab concepts as well? In trying to learn to sight read, I have had a lot of trouble deciding where on the Stick to play the notes. Because of the redundancy, I mean. In fact, depending on which tuning you use you may have up to 6 or 8 possible places to play middle C. (or more, I don't have my Stick in front of me at the moment)
Hi Mike,

There are two things to look at here.

1; The choice of the note's poition should depend primarily on how it sounds to you. this is one advantage of a fretboard over a keyboard, that we have these choices.

If you work on the various position-shifting strategies, as I teach in the Basic Free Hands Technique DVD, then it becomes very easy to go to whichever place you want, at will, to get to the note that sounds the best to you.

You just need to learn what the interval shapes look like on the staff and on the instrument and, as you read, move accordingly. Remember, each interval happens in two directions, unless you run out of frets or strings, in which case you may only have one choice.

2. If you know these position-shifting strategies really well, then you can choose a region of the board where you want to play the piece and always use the notes within that region only. The important thing to remember is that the scale fingering doesn't always define the fingering you use when you learn a piece. There are other considerations.

I see a lot of Stick players assign certain fingers to certain notes, repeating notes, or playing 4ths or 7ths with the same finger. This kind of [playing has no flow to it. It's better to train your hand to shift so that any finger can pay any note at any time.

Also, I find for sight-reading a melody (or a bass part for that matter) it's good to look at the whole piece first, and make a mental note of where the lowest note is and where the highest note is.

These may fall within a single scale position, or they may fall outside of that position.

I'd be happy to cover more on this subject with you in a private lesson ;)

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Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:17 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
As the only other SG12 owner I know of who uses mirrored 4ths I guess I should join this great discussion. I have had a 10-string tuned to classic and baritone and a grand tuned to MR and mirrored 4ths like Rob Martino. I now only have my SG and I really like mirrored 4ths. The tuning I use is the Mirrored 4ths "Piano" tuned down one half-step. Here's the reference:

http://www.stick.com/instruments/tunings/sg12/mir4_piano/

I find this tuning to be the most versatile of any one I've tried. I have a piano and guitar background and I read the grand staff and guitar notation. I don't use tab at all, I really don't like it. I am transcribing piano and guitar music to my SG and I have not found a piece of music yet that can't be played note for note the same as the original. I also like the fret spacing since it matches my experience on guitar. The combination has opened up a huge potential repertoire of music that is not hard to transcribe and learn. I'm finding that the standard notation becomes merely a way to write down what I'm playing so I can remember what I've done. It doesn't seem like a limitation at all. I find the classical guitar notation system to be equally useful. The only advantage of the grand staff is to easily indicate which hand plays what.

I think all of this really opens up the Stick to all music. Everything I want to play seems possible now. I'm really enjoying it. (Now if my arm will finally heal from its injury so I can actually play, I'll be all set.)

By the way, the fact that we are having these types of conversations indicates how far the Stick has come as an instrument. We're on our way to establishing the next major instrument that I believe will pass the test of time. Cool.

-Eric

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Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:13 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
mike kemp wrote:
Would these new learning materials be just music written out on the grand staff, or would it incorperate StaffTab concepts as well? In trying to learn to sight read, I have had a lot of trouble deciding where on the Stick to play the notes. Because of the redundancy, I mean. In fact, depending on which tuning you use you may have up to 6 or 8 possible places to play middle C.

Hi Mike,
If you are going to use Mikrokosmos, there is no real need for fingering information. It would only distract you. What you might do, however :

1) Familiarize yourself with a recording of the piece before trying it.
http://youtu.be/fJ2ELbVnEyc
2) If you need landmarks on the fretboard, put a marker at middle C and at an octave below that on the bass side, and at middle C and an octave above it on the treble side.
3) Use a clip-on tuner for reference.

Because these first pieces are unison scales, finding the note is not difficult. Also, there are only two location choices for playing any given note--you will choose your next note location according to which finger is currently in use. For this reason, you should eventually learn to play the piece three ways: starting with both first fingers on C, then second fingers, then the third. Skip the fourth finger for now. Each starting hand position will force you to change strings at a different point in the piece, which your hands will do together, and having done this with the first piece you will have played all but the starting note at two locations. Doing it with all six initial unison pieces will demystify the redundancy issue.

The only real challenge in figuring out fingerings at this stage is that you will have to get used to substituting the little finger of the left hand for the third finger when the stretch is too great, which is most of the time; you will be playing with the little finger of the left hand while using the third of right hand, spoiling the otherwise perfect symmetry between hands. But I have found this to be an easy adjustment to make...just play what is most comfortable.

(Most of this is assuming you are using fourths).


Mad Monk.

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Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:48 pm
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
greg wrote:
So what I get from Randy's original query and suggestion, is that The Stick could be a vehicle for learning what people have traditionally learned about composition, harmony and counterpoint through the keyboard, if we can identify an optimal tuning for that purpose.

The R&D has been completed for years--I now have a solid repertoire and reading skills, and use the instrument for schoolwork. Mirrored fourths works for this purpose.

greg wrote:
What exact tuning and string configuration are you proposing?

I looked at hundreds of pieces of keyboard music to determine the ranges for each hand, at the historical periods when the harmonies are most playable on strings. These are the open strings on the SG12:

Treble clef
1) G4
2) D4 (above middle C)
3) A3
4) E3
5) B2
6) F#2

Bass clef
7) B1
8) E2 (guitar low E)
9) A2
10) D3
11) G3
12) C4 (middle C)

I have so far logged 2400 hours practice on this particular model, the SG, playing classical repertoire (currently at 75 minutes). Because the left hand part on average covers more range than the right hand, my own instrument has an extra bass string at the low end in place of string 6, and a 5-7 split pickup. But this proposed "Stick Piano" 6+6 configuration will play almost as many pieces.

Mad Monk.

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Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:02 am
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Post Re: "Stick Piano" model...?
mad_monk wrote:
These are the open strings on the SG12:

Treble clef
1) G4
2) D4 (above middle C)
3) A3
4) E3
5) B2
6) F#2

Bass clef
7) B1
8) E2 (guitar low E)
9) A2
10) D3
11) G3
12) C4 (middle C)

I have so far logged 2400 hours practice on this particular model, the SG, playing classical repertoire (currently at 75 minutes). Because the left hand part on average covers more range than the right hand, my own instrument has an extra bass string at the low end in place of string 6, and a 5-7 split pickup. But this proposed "Stick Piano" 6+6 configuration will play almost as many pieces.

Mad Monk.
Just to clarify, are these notes at the x-fret or "open strings" as you wrote.
I really hope you will put some of your work online for others to check out. You are so passionate about this idea, it seems a shame not to see it in action.

I've ordered the first Mikrokosmos book to have on hand as well as some other useful references (the Well-tempered Clavier, and another book called "First Lessons in Bach"). I don't know how much time I'll b able to spend on this, but I'm going to see how hard it is to bring it to 5ths with a high bass 4th as an alternative to the mirrored 4ths... wish me luck!

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Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:38 am
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