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Looping in Ableton
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Author:  gpoorman [ Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Looping in Ableton
Hi all,

People that know me know I've done quite a lot of looping over the years. My live rig today is completely computer based (aside from my preamps) using Mac and Mainstage. Completely except for looping. I've used an Echoplex Digital Pro for almost 20 years and still do. Other devices just never quite did it for me and the only software that I ever found to come close was Mobius which appears to have vanished after Mac went 64-bit.

So as much as I still love my EDP, I'd really like to see if there's any software that might work for me. I've seen quite a few people use Ableton over the years (including this morning's killer video from Kevin Keith). So I'm wondering who here has really dug into this and what your impressions are?

I realize there's probably a free trial and I'm not necessarily married to Mainstage or even Mac for that matter. But replacing the looper AND the host is probably a sizeable task and there's functionality on the EDP I can't do without. Multiple loops, quantize, loop quantize, loop multiply (just to name a few).
Author:  SteveS [ Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
gpoorman wrote:
I realize there's probably a free trial and I'm not necessarily married to Mainstage or even Mac for that matter. But replacing the looper AND the host is probably a sizeable task and there's functionality on the EDP I can't do without. Multiple loops, quantize, loop quantize, loop multiply (just to name a few).

Any interest in iOS solutions? I've been really interested in looping, but TBH haven't really made the effort to dive into it, but I know of one app - Loopy Pro - that seems to check all of your boxes above and a lot more. It's pricey ($30) but does have a 7-day free trial, and seems to be very highly regarded. It's fully controllable by any MIDI controller, though a foot controller obviously is the way you'd want to go for live performance.

One downside is you might need to invest in some effects plugins, though there are excellent free options for the most common — compression, reverb, delay, distortion, chorus etc. Although now that I think about it, you could also run conventional pedals in front of your audio interface too as an alternative. You can also incorporate synths and other virtual instruments (also with very good free options to get started with) which is kinda cool...

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/loopy-pro-looper-daw-sampler/id1492670451
Author:  gpoorman [ Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
I admittedly haven't looked at IOS in a while. Last time I looked it was pretty limited though. I need multiple inputs. Ability to simultaneously run Stick and guitar (maybe external synths). Audio FX plus software instruments (controlled by a MIDI keyboard).

I said I wasn't married to Mac necessarily but now that I think about that statement, all of my old recording projects are in Logic and there is a very nice tight connection between Mainstage and Logic.

I know you mentioned discussing this at Interlochen and I'm thinking there might be time for that.
Author:  SteveS [ Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
gpoorman wrote:
I need multiple inputs. Ability to simultaneously run Stick and guitar (maybe external synths).

Hardware inputs are limited to the number of ports you have on your audio interface, as is the case with any DAW. The number of virtual instruments, synths, anything that supports the AUV3 plugin interface or Inter-App Audio (IAA, the older iOS inter-op technology) is unlimited subject to how hard you're pushing the DSP. Also, virtually all audio production apps on iOS support MIDI hardware. I have two MIDI keyboards that I connect to either my Mac or my iPad and the apps running on either without issue.

But wrt Logic/Mainstage, yeah - Apple hasn't ported those to iOS. There are many good DAWs for iOS, including Steinberg's Cubasis, NanoStudio 2, MTS (Multi-track Studio), Audio Evolution, FL Studio etc. and other packages (like Loopy Pro) that have DAW-like features. I use AUM – which is technically a mixer app – on a daily basis as my "rig" for the Stick, but I use it to host a piano-roll plugin to record, write, edit and play back MIDI data, which begins to blur the distinction with DAWs.

If you have a lot of Logic projects, I can see that exporting the audio and MIDI files and importing them to another DAW would be a major PITA, so yah - staying with Logic seems to be the sensible choice! :D
Author:  captaindownbeat [ Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
Hi Steve et al

I can't speak specifically to Stick+Albeton for looping, but I've been using Ableton for live looping for years.... and it's excellent.

My main live-looping project is my a cappella duo, FreePlay. We've taken this group to over 20 countries and 6 continents now. Here's a live piece of us doing The Beatle's 'Taxman'. 100% live, no prerecorded tracks, no post editing or mixing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37f9K0P6Nc4

I've also used it solo, for bass, voice and keys. Here's something a little more lofi, recorded at home on my phone a few years back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0XY3ZGwje8

I've also used it in a trio-band situation, where all instruments (bass, tabla, 3 vocals) could be looped at different times so our trio could use live-looping to cover overdubs as per our studio albums.

Albeton is fantastic. It can accept any number of inputs, and loops can be programmed to accept only one input, ie you could record a voice on one loop and bass on another, simutaneously. It has a "looper" plugin that emulates classic loopers, so your x2, /2, multiply, reverse, one-shot... all that exists. And, since it's also a DAW that can run on a timeline, if you've got a composition with a fixed structure (ie w/o open-ended sections), you can automate the loops ahead of time for hands free recording/muting/switching loops. You can even automate FX, which is how all the delays and such in Taxman can come in and out.

Ableton runs on a laptop, and we use a Behringer XR18 on the front end, giving us a compact combo mixer/USB interface with up to 18 in/out. Our touring rig (for a the a cappella duo) fits in a single carryon case. Once we found this, we never looked back. Give it a try, if Ableton offers a demo.

Dylan
Author:  kevink [ Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
Hi Glenn,

Thank you for the compliment on my recent video! Ableton for me has been life changing - I can't say it enough.

I play multiple instruments and make a living writing music in multiple genres, so I'm not just influenced by musicians, I'm influenced by composers, producers and Electronic DJ's as well. That's right, I said DJ's!

I've always envied the workflow of skilled modern Electronic DJ's in that they are able to add and subtract instruments and layer on the fly in real time. As a live musician I can only play a single instrument while Electronic DJ's are able to construct complete compositions in real time.
That's where Ableton comes in. Ableton is not just a looper, it's a Live performance DAW that allows a musician to have a DJ's workflow.

This is huge! This ability has never existed for musicians and is completely game changing.
In my last video I'm playing piano, electric upright bass and Stick, but my complete rig adds an electric guitar, an acoustic guitar, a 6 string bass and my vocals.

I'm still using version 10 with a Push 2 controller and an Akai APC60 controller. The feature set is within my needs, it's good on CPU and it's really stable. The Push 2 controller makes it so you rarely need to touch the computer.

I love Ableton, it's not just a DAW, it's a brand new instrument. It's also a deep, deep dive - there's bit of a learning curve but it's worth it.
I'll probably be using Ableton the rest of my life.

Kevin
Author:  Per Boysen [ Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
I have been using Live for live looping on stage a few times and like it very much. As long as you run Live as the tempo master it is fully stable for me. One thing I am missing (from my background going Lexicon Jamman, EDP, Repeater, Mobius) is the option to cut up stuff on the fly, especially if you want to cut out the last beat of a four-beats phrase to mock up polyrhythm along another loop. It generally seems quite 4/4 biased.

One thing that I love with Ableton and its Looper device is that you can creat MIDI clips that contains the notes or cc data you have assigned to looper functions. You can fire off those "control clips" from pedals or keys. Then you are much freer to spin stuff as you are going. Not as open a system as the EDP, I have to admit, but I like it.

Here is a nice video where Eric Persing is improvising live-loopiong with Ableton Lives Looper device:
Author:  gpoorman [ Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
Do you think you could get by with Live "Intro" or do you really need the "Standard" version?

Honestly this all just comes down to software looping. It's really quite remarkable to me that the Mainstage looping plugin sucks so badly.
Author:  Claire [ Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
gpoorman wrote:
Do you think you could get by with Live "Intro" or do you really need the "Standard" version?

Honestly this all just comes down to software looping. It's really quite remarkable to me that the Mainstage looping plugin sucks so badly.


You might take a look at Audio Damage Enso plug-in. I purchased it a while back when it was on discount and haven't really had a chance to dig into it. But it's pretty full-featured and I generally like the Audio Damage software.

As far as Live, looking at their comparison, looks like Intro is limited to 16 tracks, 16 scenes, and 2 send/return tracks - that is really limited. Beyond Standard, Suite has some nifty features like CV devices (I know you're into eurorack stuff), and Max for Live. I really like their physical model instruments (Tension and Collision). Admittedly, I have a license through work, if I needed to purchase this personally I'd get Suite and M4L (I also use Max).

Check out the comparison for the full list of plugins and instruments that you do/don't get and see what works for you. I think there's always an upgrade path.
Author:  gpoorman [ Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looping in Ableton
Claire wrote:
You might take a look at Audio Damage Enso plug-in. I purchased it a while back when it was on discount and haven't really had a chance to dig into it. But it's pretty full-featured and I generally like the Audio Damage software.

Aaah. Was looking at that this morning actually. It looks interesting and there's a free trial. It doesn't look like it multiplies though which is a deal breaker. Although I could be wrong but I just didn't see it in the manual.
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