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 Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users 
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Post Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
Just curious if anybody enjoys something like the M3-8 or M3-6 with the stick.


Sun May 24, 2015 4:27 pm
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
I recall that you do not have any experience with electric instruments: do you have any experience with digital audio workstation (DAW) software or live sound?

Running the Stick into speakers like that leaves you starved for headroom, so you will need certain additional tools (such as a limiter plugin in your DAW) and knowledge to use such a setup effectively. This is especially true when getting started with the Stick because you will be learning to control its enormous dynamic range as you go along.


Sun May 24, 2015 8:27 pm
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
[Geez, spare yourself, hit 'next', don't say I didn't warn you]

On the down side of my getting started with a stick, I have absolutely no equipment with which to play my stick.

On the up side of my situation, I have absolutely no equipment! Clean slate!

As you know from my other posts, I've been considering a number of angles for my "getting started" kit, which is complicated by my travel schedule.

I've researched various scenarios at this point, and slept on them trying to come up with might work for me, with no conclusions yet other than sooner or later I need to order something so I'm ready to practice when my stick arrives.

My primary "use case" is that 99% of all my stick playing will be playing the stick for me, myself, and I. No gigs, no large venues, probably nothing larger than my living room, though I do a 4000 square foot unfinished cathedral-like building/room on the property that it might be fun to play in for kicks.

I'm not even sure which room(s) will be my primary practice rooms, pretty much every room I have has extreme tradeoffs (extreme temperatures, too big, too small, too full of parrots, etc).

If I had lots of equipment or wanted to rattle the neighbors windows, then maybe I'd just use separate guitar and bass amps and be all set. But that would be a lot to carry around on my weekly travel schedule. If I just wanted to have one and only one speaker for travelling and practicing, then maybe I'd look for something reasonably full range and portable (a Roland AC or KC combo of some form, perhaps).

Looking at the "full range" side of the equation leads to a question of PA speakers, where it becomes an exercise in scaling up the signal you have to the dimensions you want without adding color. And if you're looking at not adding color, and do NOT need to scale out the volume, then studio monitors may be the ticket.

So that's the line of (undoubtedly faulty) reasoning that led me to ask about the M-Audio stuff. Of course there are other tone-neutral amps/speakers people use with the stick that are less obviously monitors but are definitely PA flavored, like the QSC's. [Apologies in advance, of course I don't know what I'm talking about, it's all "book learnin" in a cram course].

Then I consider the "dual use" possibilities. Since I'm buying unknown gear for an instrument I've never heard "in the flesh", for unknown acoustic environments, there's a pretty good chance that whatever I buy will be something I'll decide wasn't such a good decision. But since I haven't bought a decent piece of home stereo equipment since my Cerwin Vega speakers from 1981, maybe I can use some of the equipment that I find doesn't quite meet my stick needs to satisfy other household music or cravings. Something attached to my TV, or a bluetooth connection to my wife's iphone. Some portable PA systems have the bluetooth/ipad possibilities. Some studio monitors might make an excellent addition to my TV (I have no soundbars and such, my TV sound is absolute crap that happens to have a nice picture).

Heck, maybe the TV room will be my practice room with some near field monitors. I'm just considering the possibilities. In such a situation a $400 pair of monitors might be just the ticket, and also show my family what they've missing in the audio department.

So here's where I stand on the PA/monitor thread:

1) I've pretty much concluded (85% probability) that a mixer is in my initial starter gear mix, if only to give me the separately channelled signal preservation, cabling flexibility, and phantom power I want.

2) Given that I plan to use a mixer between my stick and any amp/speaker I'm hoping that this leaves my amp/speaker needs as "reproduce the sound I give you, do not add color".

3) The notion of colorless sound intrigues me. Clear sound is definitely something I value. Something that faithfully reproduces a sound without embellishing will let me get to know the capabilities of my stick and then build from there. I don't want something that will make my bass muddy just to make it "punchy" just because many consumers think that sounds great.

So whether that's a horn section in some CD I'm listening to, pianos, or Greg Howard wailing away on the bass riffs, hopefully I can enhance those sounds to suit my consumer tastes given the right mixer or other signal processing independently of the amp/speaker (given sufficiently capable amp/speaker capabilities, which I may or may not have).

4) Choosing the sound-neutral amp/speaker combos then lets me focus on frequency response and flatness. On that front I would like, if I can afford it and also meet my many other constraints, to get amp/speaker that can do the best possible job with the low note on my RMR railboard, a 41 Hz frequency, which generally appears (to me) to be the most compromised end of the spectrum in a full range stick sound solution. I'd rather find a speaker that can get close to this without a subwoofer, but haven't ruled out a subwoofer if I need it.

5) Speaker size (which probably colors how I'll hear those bass and other sounds as per #4 above), and room size: my rooms are mostly small, so a 15" woofer would be wasted on me, or so I'm thinking. How well can I meet my 41Hz objectives with 6 or 8 inch cones sitting 6 feet away? I have no idea.

Blah blah blah. Sooner or later I just need to buy something, play my stick when it arrives, then I can make some more educated decisions including taking my stick to the music store to try it with some other gear. I'm already way beyond the pointless flogging of topics at this point given my lack of knowledge and any actual instrument to play. I'll make a decision soon, order something, shit and get off the pot. If I don't like it, maybe I'll find that second household use for it.

Now to Rob's questions:

Re: DAW
I'm mostly considering small hardware mixers, not DAW, because I really don't want to have to lug any more laptops to any more rooms than I already do. I'd rather have some levers I can slide with my fingers than have to hunt through software menus and keyboard shortcuts, at least for now. I'm hoping a mixer will be adequate to explore the Stick's sound possibilities for now.

Maybe a DAW will be in my future, but it's nowhere near my short list, though if that's what it takes to get me sound from my stick that I like, so be it. Meanwhile, a monitor or PA approach will let me know what my stick sounds like without well meaning but very tone biased components (like a guitar amp) cluttering up the sound.

In reading around the web, I noticed some people like their Audiobox 44VSL and similar things with their small monitors, so that's encouraging if I do go the DAW route.

Re: headroom
The question is, how much headroom do I need for playing to myself in small rooms? I've heard people mention how playing the stick into some of their components (e.g. Behringer or other small PA type things) requires care to go easy on the signal, but they're still happy with their solution. I'll definitely re-review any potential monitor equipment with an eye toward headroom but I'm not sure they specs will really let me do that.

As always, no idea what I'm talking about. Hopefully Cambria will tell me my stick is ready soon so I can get some clues! Who knows, maybe I'll just get a mixer and use headphones for the near term. The thinking changes every weekend, I'm just researching, sleeping on it, and hoping a favored direction will present itself.


Mon May 25, 2015 6:51 am
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
Nearfield monitors like the M Audio will sound good but are not meant to be cranked up.
You will also find that they aren't really 'portable'.
I have Mackie HR824 (similar in concept to the MAudio) that I practice through when dialing in Direct sounds for recording.

You could build case that would carry a mixer and the speakers but it is much easier to grab an amp and plug in.

RE: Headphone practice
You should have a good setup but you'll find it fatiguing if you do it all the time.
If you have an iPhone, you might just need a Y Cable an effects App and you'll have your travel setup.

To move as much air as a good amp setup, you would need not-so-portable PA speakers.
I have a pair of Behringer 115D that are about $300 and sound very good.
Something like that and a little Mackie Mixer would get you up and running and you would have phantom power.....but they aren't lightweight.


Mon May 25, 2015 10:10 am
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
P.S.

I would get the KRK Rokit if you wanted some small powered monitors.
I know pro engineers that are using them very happily.


Mon May 25, 2015 10:13 am
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
NOTE: There is a lot more to say in reply to the summary you wrote. Would you mind if I wrote a massive reply to address those points?

jdt wrote:
Re: DAW
I'm mostly considering small hardware mixers, not DAW, because I really don't want to have to lug any more laptops to any more rooms than I already do. I'd rather have some levers I can slide with my fingers than have to hunt through software menus and keyboard shortcuts, at least for now. I'm hoping a mixer will be adequate to explore the Stick's sound possibilities for now.

I understand where you are coming from, but you seem to be missing a key point: going the hardware route, rather than using a DAW somewhere in your signal chain, means that all supplementary functions (i.e. limiting) must be provided by additional hardware. Said additional hardware will add greatly to your costs, such that the "false economy" drum I keep beating will grow into a timpani of "I doubt you want to spend this much money." Which supplementary functions you need and why relate to the next topic...
jdt wrote:
Re: headroom
The question is, how much headroom do I need for playing to myself in small rooms? I've heard people mention how playing the stick into some of their components (e.g. Behringer or other small PA type things) requires care to go easy on the signal, but they're still happy with their solution. I'll definitely re-review any potential monitor equipment with an eye toward headroom but I'm not sure they specs will really let me do that.

Headroom is not about the space in which you are playing: it is about how much power you need in excess of what is required to reach your desired loudness level. The greater the dynamic range of the input signal, the higher the crest factor the power amp needs to support. The higher the crest factor, the more headroom is needed. You do not need to be very loud in small rooms, so that means that:

Your Desired Loudness Level + The Headroom Required = More Power Than You Think, but Less Than Would Be Difficult to Achieve

The dynamic range aspect is really the key here. Studio monitors are used with audio which has already had its dynamic range limited in some fashion. Conversely, your playing technique will be your only dynamic range control. This means your headroom target for the power amp should be 6dB (i.e. four times the amount of power you would need to reach your desired loudness level). I need to explain other topics before going further with this topic, however, so please be sure to answer the question at the top of this post.
Johnmarkpainter wrote:
I would get the KRK Rokit if you wanted some small powered monitors.
I know pro engineers that are using them very happily.

The KRK monitors are designed more for "punch" than accuracy, which goes against jdt's stated purpose. A lot of engineers like that, of course, which is why some products (e.g. Blue's MoFi headphones) include a bass boost option.


Mon May 25, 2015 11:18 am
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
re: Rob, any reply type is fine and appreciated.

Re headroom: I understand the goal is to avoid clipping and other things, but beyond that it's why I ask how much headroom I need. Can I control, easily enough, what comes out of the railboard and mixer so avoid headroom problems with a monitor? No idea.

Re: DAW and cost: good point to be sure. Right now I'm in a classic (computer) "fast, cheap, good, pick two" conundrum, magnified by ignorance and a less than clear picture of what will work bests for me.

Re: krk monitors

Listening to SoundSenseProAudio and other comparison sources online, they kept sounding exceptionally dull *as monitors go*, so either they're truly flat where the other's aren't, or they're just somehow exceptionally dull.

I found myself liking the Yamaha HS8 and similar things. The Samson Resolv SE8 seemed like it might be a good starter speaker. While tripping over sound clips I listened to a comparision against the Event Opal. That sure seemed nice, then I noticed it was $1500. Oops!

re: Behringer 115D

Yeah, it was looking at PA systems that led me to monitors, but maybe, for headroom or other reasons monitors aren't the way to go, and i'm back to PA systems or classic combo suitcases like Roland AC/KC equipment. I don't think I've done the PA section of my spreadsheet yet, I guess I was trying to rule out monitors first. The PA systems seems like SPL overkill for my small rooms, except maybe my living room.


Mon May 25, 2015 12:37 pm
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
jdt wrote:
If I had lots of equipment or wanted to rattle the neighbors windows, then maybe I'd just use separate guitar and bass amps and be all set. But that would be a lot to carry around on my weekly travel schedule.

That seems to imply that using separate guitar and bass amps is the ideal, which it is not. This probably goes counter to what many believe, but here are just some of the reasons why I am so fervent:
  1. You will require more equipment if you sing whilst playing Stick.
  2. Neither guitar nor bass amps have high enough input impedances for the various Stick pickups (other than the ACTV-2 Block).
  3. Neither guitar nor bass amps allow you to use the R Block's active mode (even from an external phantom power supply, because they do not provide line-level inputs before their EQ circuits).
  4. The voicing and EQ facilities of guitar amps work against the Stick's timbre, as I explained in Episode 40 of Free Hands Friday.
  5. Expanding on the previous point a bit: the harmonics in the Stick's timbre play hell with tube guitar amps and do not align with the design presumptions in modeling amps.
  6. Bass speaker cabinets have insufficient low frequency extension, especially bass combo amps, due to their design presumptions (are you sensing a pattern yet?).
  7. Bass speaker cabinets sacrifice mid and high frequency reproduction based a design presumption that the source instrument has less high frequency content than the Stick's "bass" side (as I explained in Episode 44 of Free Hands Friday).
  8. The combination of both amps will be bigger and heavier than a single, (as near as possible) full range speaker cabinet.
  9. Using multiple speaker cabinets will require extremely careful placement within each and every room to avoid or manage (just off the top of my head):
    1. dispersion
    2. phase alignment
    3. comb filtering
    4. quarter wave cancellation
    5. room gain

Would you rather focus on learning Stick or add learning proper sound reinforcement?
jdt wrote:
If I just wanted to have one and only one speaker for travelling and practicing, then maybe I'd look for something reasonably full range and portable (a Roland AC or KC combo of some form, perhaps).

Neither keyboard combo amps nor (especially) acoustic guitar amps are anywhere near as full range as you might expect. The design presumption of acoustic guitar amps is obvious, but what you may not know is that the "at real gigs, you run into the house PA" paradigm is far stronger in the keyboard world than it is even in the bass guitar world. As such, in addition to the inherent differences between keyboards and the Stick, keyboard amps are insufficient with regard to:
  1. input signal level
  2. input impedance
  3. EQ controls
  4. frequency response
  5. amplifier power
  6. accuracy of reproduction

These shortcomings are all the more damning in light of keyboard amps' size, weight, and cost.
jdt wrote:
Looking at the "full range" side of the equation leads to a question of PA speakers, where it becomes an exercise in scaling up the signal you have to the dimensions you want without adding color. And if you're looking at not adding color, and do NOT need to scale out the volume, then studio monitors may be the ticket.

So that's the line of (undoubtedly faulty) reasoning that led me to ask about the M-Audio stuff. Of course there are other tone-neutral amps/speakers people use with the stick that are less obviously monitors but are definitely PA flavored, like the QSC's.

Both PA speakers and studio monitors are designed for specific contexts, in which they are part of larger systems.

PA speakers, as I have explained elsewhere, are not as full range as one would reasonably expect. Compensation for this leads them to be less neutral than one would expect, but the basic compromise comes down to:
  1. price point
  2. profit margin
  3. the expectation that you will also use a subwoofer
  4. the perception of portability

PA speakers, including PA subwoofers, sacrifice low frequency extension in favor of increased loudness (this makes the most of their relatively weak power amplifiers and small size, though they may yet be heavy): the link in this section's second paragraph explains this in detail.
jdt wrote:
[Apologies in advance, of course I don't know what I'm talking about, it's all "book learnin" in a cram course].

No worries, I am glad to help you as much as I can (and any others who may read this in the future, hence the links in this post which I have included in other replies to you). Take it easy, take it slow (including not getting in a hurry to buy something), and feel free to ask any questions you like. I will be glad to discuss this via Skype or Google+ Hangout if you best process information verbally.
jdt wrote:
Then I consider the "dual use" possibilities. Since I'm buying unknown gear for an instrument I've never heard "in the flesh", for unknown acoustic environments, there's a pretty good chance that whatever I buy will be something I'll decide wasn't such a good decision.

It is good that you are wary of that risk, but I should point out that you are already following the best possible mitigation strategy: asking for advice. The time you spend learning will allow you to accumulate funds and ensure that you do not spend more than is necessary. As the saying goes: "buy right; buy once."
jdt wrote:
But since I haven't bought a decent piece of home stereo equipment since my Cerwin Vega speakers from 1981, maybe I can use some of the equipment that I find doesn't quite meet my stick needs to satisfy other household music or cravings. Something attached to my TV, or a bluetooth connection to my wife's iphone. Some portable PA systems have the bluetooth/ipad possibilities. Some studio monitors might make an excellent addition to my TV (I have no soundbars and such, my TV sound is absolute crap that happens to have a nice picture).

That is entirely possible, depending on what you decide to do, but you should not consider such secondary usage in your purchasing decision—not least because those are stereo sources, which the Stick is not.
jdt wrote:
Heck, maybe the TV room will be my practice room with some near field monitors. I'm just considering the possibilities. In such a situation a $400 pair of monitors might be just the ticket, and also show my family what they've missing in the audio department.

I understand the attraction, but one of the most important things to keep in mind is the total cost of your proposed Stick rig. You will find that such a purchase is (here it comes again) false economy with regard to the overall cost to benefit ratio.
jdt wrote:
3) The notion of colorless sound intrigues me. Clear sound is definitely something I value. Something that faithfully reproduces a sound without embellishing will let me get to know the capabilities of my stick and then build from there. I don't want something that will make my bass muddy just to make it "punchy" just because many consumers think that sounds great.

This is very good thinking. If you cannot hear what you are doing accurately, then how can you know what you are learning? Others will claim that it makes no difference in light of consumer audio equipment, but I think the most important place for accuracy is between your hands and your ears.
jdt wrote:
So whether that's a horn section in some CD I'm listening to, pianos, or Greg Howard wailing away on the bass riffs, hopefully I can enhance those sounds to suit my consumer tastes given the right mixer or other signal processing independently of the amp/speaker (given sufficiently capable amp/speaker capabilities, which I may or may not have).

A mastered recording should sound great without additional help, unless you are listening through remarkably shitty equipment (as many recording engineers lament the ubiquity of shitty earbuds).
jdt wrote:
4) Choosing the sound-neutral amp/speaker combos then lets me focus on frequency response and flatness. On that front I would like, if I can afford it and also meet my many other constraints, to get amp/speaker that can do the best possible job with the low note on my RMR railboard, a 41 Hz frequency, which generally appears (to me) to be the most compromised end of the spectrum in a full range stick sound solution. I'd rather find a speaker that can get close to this without a subwoofer, but haven't ruled out a subwoofer if I need it.

Again, this is good thinking. You will find that the additional ≈11Hz of the RMR tuning will make a world of difference in how easily that goal can be achieved.
jdt wrote:
5) Speaker size (which probably colors how I'll hear those bass and other sounds as per #4 above), and room size: my rooms are mostly small, so a 15" woofer would be wasted on me, or so I'm thinking. How well can I meet my 41Hz objectives with 6 or 8 inch cones sitting 6 feet away? I have no idea.

I have no idea what your reasoning is regarding a 15 inch woofer, but allow me to set you straight: a Greenboy fEARful 12/6/1 (the "/1" being unofficial nomenclature for "with a tweeter") will go lower than anything even remotely similar in terms of size, weight, and cost. You can build one yourself using the plans or a flat pack. You also have the option of buying one ready to use, but we will have things to discuss before you make such a decision.

Using the Crown XLS 1500 power amp, that six foot distance could have two different maximum loudness levels with 6dB of headroom:
  • Normal Mode: ≈108dB
  • Bridge Mode (maximum headroom, do not use until you have a lot of practice with proper gain staging): ≈114dB
jdt wrote:
Blah blah blah. Sooner or later I just need to buy something, play my stick when it arrives, then I can make some more educated decisions including taking my stick to the music store to try it with some other gear.

While that may seem reasonable, you have to understand that nothing in the store will have been made for the Stick. No one in the store will be as familiar with the Stick as the people on this forum. Likely, no one in the store will be as knowledgeable about audio gear generally as the people on this forum. You should not risk buying the wrong equipment due to sales pressure or the automatic bias of feeling you should select one of the immediate options (a human failing which has a wide range of consequences in many aspects of life, notably mug shot identification).
jdt wrote:
I'm already way beyond the pointless flogging of topics at this point given my lack of knowledge and any actual instrument to play. I'll make a decision soon, order something, shit and get off the pot. If I don't like it, maybe I'll find that second household use for it.

This is very bad thinking, in direct contradiction to your earlier reasoning. I understand that you may be frustrated, embarrassed, or simply feel that you are an placing an unreasonable imposition on those who are helping you. With all due respect, Marsellus Wallace was right about one thing: "That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that shit."
jdt wrote:
Re headroom: I understand the goal is to avoid clipping and other things, but beyond that it's why I ask how much headroom I need. Can I control, easily enough, what comes out of the railboard and mixer so avoid headroom problems with a monitor? No idea.

You can control that with proper gain staging, which was mentioned earlier in this truly massive post. Here is a great guide to gain staging, but it should be noted that it is based on 3dB of power amplifier headroom (it says to place the power amplifier at half volume). You want 6dB of headroom, which you can achieve by either putting the power amplifier at one quarter of its maximum volume or using this trick—which I am sure is just a way to avoid having to teach people a new position for power amplifier attenuator controls—in conjunction with that guide.

Fatigue is preventing me from remembering how to convert M-Audio's sensitivity specification into a format I can use to calculate a specific example. Thus, my explanation of why studio monitors are not ideal will have to suffice.

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Mon May 25, 2015 4:17 pm
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
Hello.this is a really interesting post!and since i have tryied
guitar and/or bass amp,Pa systems with or without 15''sub
and also computer with bose 3.1 systems.. also a bass head
class AB amp into an hifi 3 way speaker.also the marshall plexy
into 4x12 cabinet.the best sounding for me is the hifi speaker
with class AB amplifier.this is very clear,detailed and realistic
sounding,but not enough loud.so i was thinking to buy
the m audio m3 8, or to build a 4 way mono speaker with ab clads amp
In the end..since i have the RANE sp13.,,,and like an acoustic sounding
system....what do you think have i to use?and whay do ypu prefer?

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Thu May 28, 2015 8:55 am
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Post Re: Any M-Audio M3-* speaker/monitor users
Tzappatore wrote:
Hello.this is a really interesting post!and since i have tryied guitar and/or bass amp,Pa systems with or without 15''sub
and also computer with bose 3.1 systems.. also a bass head
class AB amp into an hifi 3 way speaker.also the marshall plexy
into 4x12 cabinet.the best sounding for me is the hifi speaker
with class AB amplifier.this is very clear,detailed and realistic
sounding,but not enough loud.so i was thinking to buy
the m audio m3 8, or to build a 4 way mono speaker with ab clads amp
In the end..since i have the RANE sp13.,,,and like an acoustic sounding
system....what do you think have i to use?and whay do ypu prefer?

Can the 3 way speaker handle a more powerful amp?


Thu May 28, 2015 2:30 pm
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