It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:24 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 Crafty tuning 
Author Message
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Upstate, NY (USA)
Post Re: Crafty tuning
gpoorman wrote:
rclere wrote:
I do remember Fripp giving the "force you outside the box" argument which I never bought entirely. I mean ... I'm sure it does accomplish that but only for a short period of time. Once it becomes ingrained as your new tuning, then it really just replaces the box with another box.


With regard to the whole "box" argument, I feel that my choice of Crafty tuning is a self-imposed box. My bass teacher, the inimitable Albany NY bass hero Jon Cohen, spent many years instilling the importance of creating well thought out restrictions. The classic example is the motive in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, but Jon offered me a new perspective as well with this little exercise:

While looking at his watch, Jon said "play a funk song in G minor."
It took me five seconds to come up with something.

Next, he said "play anything - no restrictions!"
The first notes sounded after thirty seconds!

It changed my thinking. Think inside the box that you create!!!

Maybe I didn't develop the tuning myself, but Crafty is the box I have chosen to work in.

Best,
~Nick "Klaus" G.

_________________
Mysterious Warr Guitar (in "Crafty" tuning)


Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:22 am
Profile
Artisan Contributor
Artisan Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:54 pm
Posts: 734
Post Re: Crafty tuning
Hey, so did you get a crafty tuning going on? You dig? What were the tunings again. cheers

_________________
"The society for the advancement of harmonic abstraction exists"
www.youtube.com/oceansinspace


Tue May 20, 2014 12:02 pm
Profile
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:18 pm
Posts: 171
Location: UK
Post Re: Crafty tuning
Ravi wrote:
Thanks. That explains the 5th's of the lowest 6 strings but not the minor 3rd and 2nd of the highest strings. The minor 3rd is copied from the Crafty tuning but the 2nd of the highest string seems very strange and impractical. There must be another reason or strange logic besides string tension for that.

Having been interested in Robert Fripp and Crafty tunings for 25 years, i recently researched further and now feel i can give a fairly reliable answer.
(I know that this is an old thread, and it seems that Ravi is not active, however this seems the most suitable place to post this due to the question being asked, and due to the thread title. This thread will appear in seaches for 'Crafty tuning'.)

Here is an informative entry from Robert Fripp's diary:

"Then, some time later, Vivien asked again. This time, I replied yes. What was in-between the two same-questions & the two different-answers was the experience, in the sauna of the Apple Health Spa on Bleecker & Thompson in NYC, when the NST flew by, over my head going from right left, the tuning going from low to high. Originally, seen in 5ths. all the way, the top string would not go to B. so, as on a tenor banjo, I adopted an A on the first string. These kept breaking, so G was adopted. This has worked well. This is a good example of how a notion presents itself & creative intelligence is applied in bringing what-is-possible-in-an -unconditioned world into actuality-in-a-conditioned-world; for example, where Newtonian physics apply to thin strings carrying too great a load. So…"

https://web.archive.org/web/20100225142816/http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=16789

The key section is:

"Originally, seen in 5ths. all the way, the top string would not go to B. so, as on a tenor banjo, I adopted an A on the first string. These kept breaking, so G was adopted."

The punctuation seems wrong here, but it is clear that his vision was all-fifths CGDAEB.
The top B being a fifth up was impossible, so he tried a fourth-up A, these were prone to breakage, so he settled on the practical minor-third-up G.
Note that both A and G are already present lower in the tuning, which seems to be why they were chosen.

What is also clear is that the inconsistent top interval is only to compress the range to avoid string breakage, when starting on the low C.
(In 1983, it was very difficult to find guitar strings that could tune lower than C, .056 was the typical largest gauge. I also expect that Robert Fripp was looking to replicate cello tuning CGDA, he is known to like Bartok's string quartets).

I remember an interview with Robert Fripp where he stated that the Crafty tuning for 7 string guitar was CGDAEGA. (UPDATE 12/10/23: Confirmed in a recent Guitar World Robert Fripp interview https://www.guitarworld.com/features/robert-fripp-sunday-lunch). I expect this was stated as a relative tuning not an absolute one, as that top A is borderline impossible.
This tuning combines the fourth-up and minor-third-up intervals he tried when trying to acheive CGDAEB. The result is fifths plus minor third plus major second.

Trey Gunn was a Robert Fripp Guitar Craft student in (roughly) 1985 and retuned his guitars to Crafty tunings.
When he started playing Stick a few years later, he used a 5 + 7 string split, bass inverted fifths CGDAE, melody FCGDACD, the melody tuning being the Crafty 7 string tuning transposed down to end on D4, the highest practical pitch on a 34" scale.

Playing with King Crimson he started to use a 12 string Warr Guitar with the same tuning (which i saw in concert in 1995). Later he the idea to simplify the instrument into a single-region 8 string tapper by extending downwards the melody side of his Warr Guitar. This was the origin of the 8 string Warr Guitar. A lower string was added a fifth down resulting in BbFCGDACD.

Later, Markus Reuter, another Robert Fripp Guitar Craft student, starts playing the 8 string Warr Guitar in the same tuning, then goes on to design his own instrument and start the 'Touch Guitars' company to sell it.


Last edited by ixlramp on Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:12 pm
Profile
Resident Contributor
Resident Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 4:16 pm
Posts: 471
Location: East Derby, CT
Post Re: Crafty tuning
Exceptional response here by ixlramp, as always... when it comes to these kinds of things....

I still remember learning about the NST around 1991 or so, and as a bassist it was life changing... as C G D A just made so much sense, not too mention forced me to abandon my current way of doing things.

For many years C G D A was it on my Ovation Magnum 1 & 2 electric bass guitars.

Sometime in the mid 90s or so, I got a Martin Sigma acoustic bass guitar, and after a while - the same person who got me into the NST - who also studied under Robert Fripp in NYC in the later 1980s... Wayne told me that "actually, for bass - the tuning should be D A E G..." and to his day, that is how my Martin Sigma is tuned.

4ths is ok, because it is safe - but there is something about 5ths that to me is really exciting.

Once my RB-8 is done, sometime next year - that will be in a Crafty tuning, of which I am very excited about.

ixlramp makes mention of Trey Gunn's transition from guitar in NST to Chapman Stick [I did not know that's how Trey tuned his 12 string Stick] to the Warr Guitar [this period I missed..] to the 8 string Warr Guitar, which oddly enough was my inspiration to go with the single region 8 string Railboard, in a Crafty tuning as well, which I already know is going to be like pure magic.

This is a Great thread !!

I'd love to see if some of the other folks here come back to offer there own new comments and observations on this topic of Craftiness....

_________________
Big GW
East Derby CT

Ironwood #285, Classic [flatwounds]
Ironwood #1855, Classic [roundwounds]

SB-8 Padauk #1788, Classic CGDA, Electric Bass EADG
RB-8 Drk Blue w/Black Headstock # 6739, Crafty Tuning

NS Stick Transparent Green w/Moses neck #90120, 8-string Guitar Intervals


Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:25 pm
Profile
Elite Contributor
Elite Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:45 pm
Posts: 1730
Location: Leelanau County, MI
Post Re: Crafty tuning
I played with the tuning a little on my guitar years ago and thought it was kind of cool. The issue I had, however, was that the tuning requires another set of strings so you can't just "tune to it". You need a second guitar just for that tuning.

Like others, I never really bought the "force you outside the box" argument just because once you learn it, it becomes your new box. Honestly, today's solo guitar players are way further outside the box as most of them use many different tunings on the fly and will frequently conjure up new ones to fit a tune. On any given day, I'll play acoustic guitar and make my way through a half dozen different tunings. Joni Mitchell claims to have used 51 different tunings over the years.

I was at a show a month or so ago and overheard another fingerstyle player refer to standard tuning as "the missionary position of guitar playing". I thought that was kind of funny.

_________________
Glenn
http://www.121normal.com


Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:04 am
Profile My Photo Gallery
Multiple Donor
Multiple Donor
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:17 am
Posts: 829
Post Re: Crafty tuning
The ultimate crafty tuning is the fourths fifths style devised by Emmett Chapman for free hands, for the Chapman Stick instrument.

Removing or adding strings lowering or raising tunings.
Any tuning you learn becomes a box. The way to break out of the box, is using both hands freely, on either side of the board, both hands working independently or together.
I have found my tuning of choice, fourths fifths free hands.

There are many variations of this tuning.
Once you learn the concept, it should be easy to change between any tuning, just as if you learn to play a guitar, you should be able to transfer to different tunings.
Love the sTiCk


Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:30 am
Profile
Elite Contributor
Elite Contributor

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 2530
Location: Jersey
Post Re: Crafty tuning
YOU TELL'EM, REYSTICK!

_________________
Peace, Marty
"The present day composer refuses to die" -Edgard Varese


Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:43 am
Profile My Photo Gallery
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:18 pm
Posts: 171
Location: UK
Post Re: Crafty tuning
Huh, i forgot some points about the original 7 string guitar Crafty tuning in response to the question.

It seems that the purpose is again to compress the range, but even more than the standard 'fifths plus minor third' Crafty tuning.
It could be suggested that a 6 string guitar could be used instead if too much range is a problem, but i expect some people want to tune a 7 string guitar in a fifths-based Crafty tuning for various reasons.

7 strings in standard guitar tuning BEADGBE already has quite a large range. If an extra fifth interval was added below CGDAEG the lowest string would be an F, only 1 semitone above bass guitar E. Recently, 8 string guitars tuned down to F# are common, but such low strings have some tension and stiffness issues, and these 8 string guitars often have longer scales to help these issues.

As far as i can remember, the interview with Robert Fripp where he stated the Crafty 7 string tuning was from 1994 or before that. Back then 7 string guitars were rare and special, the low B was considered very low for a guitar and guitar strings larger then gauge .056 were rare.

When Robert Fripp tried A and G when attempting to reach B, he was trying tones already present lower in the tuning, tones from CGDAE.
CGDAE are the tones of a Major pentatonic scale with the tonic on the tone of the lowest string.

From his diary:

"Rising at 07.20. Upon waking, a sense: the tuning that has been exclusively used in Guitar Craft to date, referred to as the New Standard Tuning (NST) with CGDAEG from 6>1, henceforward would be better named the Guitar Craft Standard Tuning or C Pentatonic tuning. Strictly, the latter might be called the C Major Pentatonic but, conventionally, the major is assumed where the minor is not specified."

https://dgmlive.com/diaries/Robert%20Fripp/bredonborough-rising-at-upon-waking-210916

The 7 string guitar Crafty tuning CGDAEGA remains a C Major pentatonic tuning, FCGDAEG would not be.

Going further, i was recently thinking about the next 'compression', somewhat crazy but again it would be choosing the next higher tone already present in CGDAE, resulting in CGDAEGAC: fifths plus minor third plus minor second plus minor third :geek:


Last edited by ixlramp on Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:27 pm
Profile
Contributor
Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:18 pm
Posts: 171
Location: UK
Post Re: Crafty tuning
gpoorman wrote:
The issue I had, however, was that the tuning requires another set of strings so you can't just "tune to it". You need a second guitar just for that tuning.

Like others, I never really bought the "force you outside the box" argument just because once you learn it, it becomes your new box.

It is possible to retune a standard guitar string set to CGDACD, which is fifths plus minor third plus major second, but with 6 strings instead of 7. The tensions are far from ideal of course.

I have seen scepticism about the 'force you outside the box' argument elsewhere in the forum. However, it certainly does this temporarily, which is the main point. I do not think it has been argued much that this would be permanent, because of course it would not be. 'Free hands' does not make this permanent either.

The main proponents of Crafty tunings have not made the 'outside the box' argument much.
A more common argument for Crafty tuning, as stated by Trey Gunn in interviews, is to get away from a blues and traditional rock flavour.
For Robert Fripp, he kept it secret and introduced it at his Guitar Craft courses as a surprise. The intention was that suddenly, his students of all abilities were in a way, levelled and refreshed, no-one could 'coast on automatic' or rely on muscle memory or habits.


Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:21 pm
Profile
Elite Contributor
Elite Contributor

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 2530
Location: Jersey
Post Re: Crafty tuning
gpoorman wrote:
Like others, I never really bought the "force you outside the box" argument just because once you learn it, it becomes your new box. Honestly, today's solo guitar players are way further outside the box as most of them use many different tunings on the fly and will frequently conjure up new ones to fit a tune. On any given day, I'll play acoustic guitar and make my way through a half dozen different tunings. Joni Mitchell claims to have used 51 different tunings over the years.

I have two guitars with regular sets of strings that I experiment with "Joni" tunings. (You can find them on the web). Being a spaz in the guitar department, it's the only way I can chord on a guitar, which is the second reason I fell in love w/ the Stick, approaching the melody side w/ my right hand, over the strings, I was able to play chords. And w/ the bass in inverted 5ths I was finally able to chord w/ my left hand - the ergonomics work for me. Of course for me the first reason for getting a Stick was the sound of the tapped bass, and there "thinking outside the box" came into play. So yeah, further extrapolating on what ReyStick said, questions on whether I would experiment w/ the melody-side tuning have been answered by previous Stickists in this forum. And my guitar ideas wind up incorporated somehow into my Stickisms. (I want to play everything on the Stick). Single range tuning has never come into my wheelhouse. I had a 6-string bass, I get more outa 6-strings in 5ths...with 6 melody strings in 4ths. But I do tune DBR. That's as Crafty as I get.

_________________
Peace, Marty
"The present day composer refuses to die" -Edgard Varese


Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:31 am
Profile My Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

board3 Portal - based on phpBB3 Portal Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.
Heavily modified by Stickist.com. Stickist.com is an authorized Chapman Stick® site. The Chapman Stick® and NS/Stick™ and their marks are federally registered trademarks exclusively licensed to Stick Enterprises, Inc., and are used on Stickist.com and NSstickist.com with SEI's permission.
Click here for more information.