Hi Max,

There's a pretty comprehensive thread on the subject of 4ths 5ths etc here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1303

A few points contrary to Bergerbrain's are offered below:

1. If your main interest is only in playing bass parts with your left hand, then either mirrored 4ths or parallel 4ths would work fine, and the fretboard on a 10-stirng Stick is not too wide for it to be comfortable to have the lowest bass string at string 10. It's actually a pretty narrow board (same width as the Stick Bass), especially when compared to the 12-string board on other tappers, where it would definitely be less comfortable.

Emmett once recommended to someone on either this forum or Stickwire that you could have two groups of 4ths if you just offset them by a 4th,

So the two middle strings would be tuned to the same pitch, which would make the scale "break" 5 frets between those two strings.

That tuning would be from highest to lowest, something like this:

D
A
E
B
F#
F#
Db
Ab
Eb
Bb

So the top 5 strings are the Classic tuning, and string #5 is the same pitch as string #6 and they go down in 4ths from there. You could also offset them by a whole step if you wanted, and raise the bass group up to a low C on the bottom.

Reaching across that narrow board to play the low bass string is not nearly as bad as reaching across a 12-string Stick or one of the even wider tapping necks out there.

2. The reason the bass string was in the middle on Emmett's original 9-string instrument has nothing to do with the ergonomic advantage of having the bass string in the middle. That advantage is definitely there, but the reason for the lower string being in the middle of the board is because he had inverted the lower strings on his guitar to extend the low range of the instrument while keeping the pitches of the strings the same for chording. This was before he started tapping, even, so the tuning concept predates Free Hands.

You can read all about this in an interview I did with him on the origin of the tuning here:

http://www.stick.com/interviews/chapman_06_06/

3. Stanley Jordan is playing on guitar scale instruments, where you can easily stretch your hand one fret farther. This makes playing the chords you find in 4ths much easier than on a bass scale instrument.

A couple of points of my own.

The best thing about tapping is the freedom of movement you get for the hands. The more ergonomically relaxed the positioning of the common chord and interval shapes is, the easier tapping is. I marvel at how incredibly easy it is for most of us to get going in the right hand, a hand that has never been used for complex fretting the way the left has for guitarists and bassists.

I believe it has to do with the shape of the hand and how it naturally addresses the melody 4ths. Letting your left hand have the same physical relationship (as with mirrored 4ths) to the tuning seems obvious.

5ths is a whole new musical language, worth learning for what you can say in it. Ergonomically, it's often similar to parallel 4ths, though there's more movement along the string.

I did not have this video online when the big tuning thread I linked above was happening, so I put it here now, and I invite anyone who is using parallel 4ths to post something similar. I'd love to see it:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TZi0qKzKCM[/youtube]

What's wonderful about inverted 5ths is the way you can put bass and chords together with only one hand...

So I think your idea is not a bad one, as long as you don't care about playing chords with the bass hand...
Happy Tapping,
Greg

Thanks for all that, Greg. As you say, I don't find the 10 string 34" scale too wide to reach across for low bass strings

Greg said:



It looks to me as if this tuning might avoid the caveat about 'running out of notes for full chording with an 8 or 10 string in mirrored 4ths' that appears on stick.com. Also, I assume the left and right hand delineation gets very blurred with a tuning like this (especially if you take out one of the twin F# strings). I prefer fairly 'open' chord sounds for the music I'm more likely to be playing - folk/Celtic/New Age (or is the last Old Age now?), so maybe I won't be reaching for complex bass side chords that often. Any comments on how this tuning would work out for that kind of playing?

Do those twin F# strings add many useful possibilities, or could there be an advantage to taking one of them them out (so I could chord straight across the board), moving the other 'melody' strings over, and adding another top string? Another 4th above the high D 1st string pitch above would be handy for playing higher fiddle tunes at fiddle pitch, but I guess it's out of the question (even on 34" scale) with current string tehnology. Any suggestions for what would be useful?

Max

Hi Max,

The double F# would give you some interesting clustered voices, but what you need to remember is your heading into the melody strings' range, so they are going to be less available for melody. It could be a cool tuning for two-handed interdependent things, a la the SB8.

If you have a Stickup then the tone of string #5 will differ from string #6, and you may have to enlarge the hole in the 10th string tuning machine.

Does your instrument have an intonatable bridge and adjustbale nut or is it one of the older ironwood Sticks?

If not, you can't really pull this off at all, because the intonation will be terrible.

Something you wrote in your original post bears a comment:



The problem is, it actually doesn't fit both hands the same way, not with chords, anyway. The amount of finger-bending you have to use to play chords in the left hand makes them much less comfortable than with mirrored 4ths. For chords in general, inverted 5ths is the most comfortable.

You can use the same fingerings for melodic and bass lines and scales, but you'll find the 2nd finger has to bend a lot more for many of the common chord shapes.

There's a reason the guitar is tuned the way it is. Guitar tuning allows you to access chord tones more easily than straight 4ths does.

If you map out a 4ths tuning, you'll be up on the 3rd or 4ths bass string for the root of the chord, or up above the 7th fret on the lower strings in order to play chords in the guitar range, and you'll need at least 3 strings above for most chords to have those open voicings you are looking for.

In the first instance you'll be robbing your right hand of melody notes, and in the 2nd instance you'll be playing high notes on big fat bass strings, which won't sound very good.

If you start with a low E like Rob does, you'll use all 6 strings to get up into the guitar's range.

With the 5ths tuning you are in that range easily with the top 3 bass strings.

I'm not saying you should abandon this idea, just be aware of its limitations.

Thanks Greg, that's very useful. My Stick is a polycarbonate one, so no string length tuning etc. available, no truss rod even - sounds like the tuning problems alone rule out straight 4ths.

Should tuning be OK with my previous plan of mirrored 4ths bass rather than Classic bass? That would give me:

(sorry, can't get the columns to line up)

10 9 8 7 6 - String #

E A D G C - (old) Classic bass side

Ab Eb Bb F C - (new) Mirrored 4th bass side - all pitches down on Classic tuning apart from the 6th string.

I guess I could use a 'classic 8' gauge pitched up from D to Eb for the 9th string, and a 'classic 9' gauge pitched down from E to Eb for the 10th - or would a custom set be better?

Because the 'classic 8' light gauge string requires a tuning screw with the slot relieved, I guess I'd need two of those also?

Max

H Max, The intonation won't be perfect, but it will be better than parallel 4ths. If chords are what you're after, then I'd suggest you start higher, at bass low E.

E
A
D
G
C

If you don't care so mich about being the bass player, you could go even a bit higher, like low G to start:

G
C
F
Bb
Eb

For best results, order a set of the appropriate strings from SE (off-the shelf strings sound lousy on the low end). Here's a link that will get you started on the custom tuning process:

http://www.stick.com/instruments/tunings/custom/

You need to stay in light gauge because you do not have an adjustable truss.

Hope that helps.

Thanks again Greg, that's great.

Max

No problem, Max. I have been meaning to ask you, though. Are you just thinking in terms of chords, or do you want to play bass parts as well? I ask, because one of the short scale models might be just the thing for you.

Greg Asked:



My current intention is to learn to play:

1) conventional single note bass lines from walking to funky, + melody side tunes, and

2) conventional single note bass lines + melody side chords (sort of 'bass + guitar' accompaniment style), and

3) bass side chords + melody side tunes, and

4) Stick style 'tappy' busy funky modern bass lines on their own, maybe with two hands.

I guess all but 4) mean playing the Stick in 'guitar and/or bass' styles, and I'm keen on having the bass sounds. I'm less likely to be playing 'Stick music' if you know what I mean, or fusion, or jazz. Many of the tunes I'll be playing will be modal or pentatonic, and generally 'open' chordal sounds are favoured in the music I'll be playing.

Having retuned the Stick bass side in mirrored 4ths I find bass lines coming back to me (even though they're now 'upside down' and with some wrong gauge strings) whereas I had trouble finding e.g. walking bass lines on Stick in 5ths tuning. I can also visualise mirrored chords and scales easier than I find learning two sets of chords and scales, one for each hand.

SE told me that mirrored 4ths on my old polycarbonate will put the bass side tuning off - my impression is it's probably just about OK for learning and experimentation but not good enough for any kind of public performance. That's OK by me, because now my intention is to first find out whch tuning's going to work best for me, work on learning that on this Stick to make sure it's what I need, then (if it comes in at the right price point) buy a Railboard in a few months, set up for that tuning once I'm absolutely sure what I want.

And, Emmett's got me thinking again (again...), with his piece on Raised Matched Reciprocal tuning. As I understand it, this is a Classical Melody side with a raised pitch (low bass D) matched reciprocal Bass side. Now, if I lower the tension of 4 of the bass strings by tuning in 4ths rather than 5ths, and then I raise them all up a tone by starting with low bass D instead of C, I should get somewhere back towards the original string tension, even if the tuning is still a bit out.

I prefer the idea of a new Railboard to a 10 string Grand because as I understand it the Railboard has slightly increased string spacing over my 10 string polycarbonate, but without going as far as the 10 string Grand. I also like the 34" scale length - so, if I find 10 strings is enough with 4ths bass tuning over the next few months, a 10 string Railboard sounds ideal.

My, whoever said thinking is dangerous, a page or so back, is right - it's just that not thinking is more dangerous.

Max

It's worth noting that inverted 5ths and 4ths do have parallel (reciprocal) geometric relationships for chord shapes. I find myself thinking less about scale patterns these days and more about "where the notes are I want to play".

Not trying to dissuade from anything, just pointing out the similarities that do exist between the tunings.

On your instrument, for strings that are thicker than the ones you have on there already, you can get modified bridge screws that will lengthen the vibrating portion of the string a little, to compensate for some of the intonation issues going from 4ths to 5ths on a fixed bridge.