I wanted to revisit this as I am currently learning to translate classical keyboard harmony over to Stick so I might be able to use it in the music theory classes I teach.

The observation I have made in trying to read the Bach chorale style of harmony and voice leading is that the concept of "voices" as they relate to a choir and to the layout of the keyboard sort of begins to disintegrate as you bring it to the Stick fretboard. A simple example illustrates what I mean:



Here we have the simplest harmonic progression you can have, I-IV-V-I. On the left is the progression realized in StaffTab. This arrangement provides the best aural voice leading. In other words what we hear sounds just like the grand staff realization on the right. From a part-writing standpoint what you see in the right example is how the voices are working, with stem directions indicating the separation of the voices.

The main issue for the Stick comes with the IV chord in this case. The easiest fingering to use creates an issue where the proper voices actually cross between the hands. The lines between the staves show how the actual voices move between the left and right hands during the progression I-IV-V. This isn't really a problem if you're just improvising. Where it becomes a problem is when you're reading something like a Bach chorale. In any four-part texture that was created for voices and keyboard you can find multiple places where this kind of crossing will be needed when translating to the Stick, and it can get pretty messy, especially if you're sight reading.

Of course this is all on a matched reciprocal Grand with standard fifths bass, and that's the root of the issue as Mad Monk has pointed out. I haven't tried the mirrored fourths yet but I would like to see for myself how much easier this kind of playing can become with it.

Dave

Hi Stringtapper,

The inverted fifths tuning is a clever way to relate the same fretboard geometry to both sides of the body, and it works great as long as you are playing melody against chord. It becomes less useful in playing simultaneous melodies, or playing harmonies split between hands. That's my take, anyway, having used fifths for over a decade in attempting to play several of the various textures found in piano music. Rather than give up, years ago I switched to fourths.

For the reasons you mention, among others, I could not have managed to study theory on the instrument or learned to play Bach chorales (which has lately led me to jazz block chords) in inverted fifths.

Nice graphics, by the way. Is that Lilypond?


Mad Monk.

No that was done in Finale with the StaffTab font.

At this point I am probably going to buy another Grand and have it tuned in Mirrored 4ths so I can explore the tuning. It definitely seems like reading and playing chorale textures would be less of a mind melt than it is with the 5ths tuning. But of course as Steve has said before you can accomplish it even in the 5ths tuning, but I think it's clear that it takes a little more effort than it does with the Mirrored 4ths.

Dave Huff

A lifelong pursuit ought to be carried out in the most efficient possible manner.

We hear about how anything less than the best instrument is to be shunned, lest it discourage the student; the instrument's setup is to be kept in optimum condition, for the same reason. All well and good. But as for matching the tuning to the type of music to be studied, never mind--one size fits all.

The question isn't whether some things can or cannot be played. The question is, will it be merely difficult, or will it be absurdly difficult? I estimate that for something like a 2-part invention (admittedly an extreme example), you need 4 times as much work to play it in 5ths. Another 4ths convert told me he came up with the same figure independently. And yes, I did manage to play a 2-part invention halfway decently, after years of practice, in 5ths. It was possible. But scarcely worth the effort.

I wish I had switched to a Grand Stick (with the possibility of 4ths) when they came out, instead of waiting a few years.


Mad Monk.

stringtapper

why flipflop the voices on the 4 chord? left hand has an octave which is simple shape and right has a minor 3rd. plus it has weaker voice leading, right? I would play it as written.

am I missing something?

Brett

Brett, yes you can play it that way and then the fingering would match the keyboard example. The reason I would go with my fingering (even though it creates the issue with the voices I mentioned) is that it's less overall motion in the left hand.

Now what you said about the voice leading being weaker wouldn't be true, because sonically the fingering I gave and the one you just suggested are identical, i.e. the same exact pitches are being sounded in the same registers. The only difference is which side of the board they're being played on.

Maybe a better example of what I'm talking about is a texture where a minor 3rd would occur between the bass and tenor voices. In that case moving the 3rd into the right hand would probably be preferable to playing the awkward left hand fingering (I can play them but not everyone has hands that big). In that case the voices themselves are then moving between the hands, which can make sight reading such a passage a challenge.

Hi Brett and stringtapper,

For me, awkward fingering is only a minor issue. In fifths, you can make all the left hand harmonic intervals but the seconds, and even then you can swing your thumb around and catch them. They seldom occur in the left hand anyway because they don't sound so good below middle C.

But having two different sets of shapes for the same interval, one for each hand, bogs you down. It's worst for the contrapuntal texture (that nobody uses anymore), but all keyboard music is harder to find your way around; it's work enough as it is without using the most efficient tuning for this.

There is all kinds of praise for inverted fifths on this site and I don't disagree with any of it. For certain things though, the kinds of textures that interest me, fourths also deserve celebration.


Mad Monk.

Greetngs, Thank you for the recommendation on Aldwell et al. I've ordered a copy of the 2nd Edition from Amazon. Would you recommend the workbooks as well? I've been interested in playing Baroque keyboard music on the Stick since I started, as it reminds me of a clavichord. Could you say a bit more about the mirrored 4ths tunings that you've found to work well? Do you have any thoughts about keeping two instruments, one in standard tuning and one in mirrored fourths?

Amen, Brother.

Holy cow!
Just subscribing to follow, to learn. You guys are way out of my league here.