Not to mention the loud and bombastic bane of all musical instruments sent from the devil ...

the saxophone.

Ouch! Maybe not the best example

Seriously ... no offense but I've never really cared for her.

But the point is well taken and I think this goes back to something that Rob Martino had said a couple of pages back. Certainly there are people out there working in a room full of keys and computers generating some really wonderful stuff and as I said, look no further than the film industry. But as Rob said, a lot of the people who are very accomplished at this have a very deep background in music and were likely very good performers in their own right on whatever instrument they specialized in. At some point though, the composer in them wanted to hear more than simply what they could perform. And really ... thank god for that! Otherwise non of the worlds great symphonies would have ever been written.

Like her pop music or not (I'm personally not a big fan), Björk is classically trained. Ouch, indeed.


As to the subject of loopers, I think Matt's stance is fairly typical of the instrumentalist who is comfortable and content to stick with the traditional definitions of and relationships between "instrument" and "performer." Nothing wrong with that at all, but it ain't the only game in town. Highly disciplined composers and performers are working with interactive systems all the time, systems where performer and some machine (usually a computer with some type of interface) interact to create a performance that is indeed "more than the sum of their parts." Computer musicians and composers of interactive music have been working on this stuff for years now and one would be on shaky ground in labeling these people as "hacks."

For me personally, as of late my relationship with the Stick has mostly been the "traditional" one that Matt espouses. I have looping capabilities with Ableton Live and Max; I have a MIDI pickup to add to and compliment the sound of the Stick if I want to. But lately I've been focusing on just the "fingers on strings" because as Jeff rightly pointed out about why he got rid of his looper, it takes different kinds of discipline and hard work to master other kinds of tools like loopers and I've found that when it comes to the Stick in particular I'm more interested in what I can do with it as a raw solo instrument.

I've also found I'm more interested in playing with human musicians, but that doesn't mean I devalue what one person can do with just a laptop. I won't take the (ultra-)conservative stance that says they aren't a musician because they aren't playing a "traditional" instrument. The computer is an instrument, it's old news by now.

And as Glenn pointed out, there are things you can do with these new "non-traditional" instruments and techniques that just can't do with a couple of people. I can't afford to hire a chamber ensemble, but I can sure recreate the sound of one with my computer now. Milton Babbitt foresaw this use of the studio and technology back when he wrote "The Composer As Specialist" (popularly known as "Who Cares If You Listen?") in the late 50s. It came to pass in his lifetime and it's a beautiful thing.

Anyway, that's a little far afield, but I'd say that opening our minds to changes in how we think about music and performance doesn't have to be a bad thing. Hell, would the Stick exist if Emmett hadn't done the same?

Dave Huff

Well, I didn't know. But you can admit that her way to write tunes is a bit unconventional, I didn't see her taking a guitar and writing down some chords. That's what I would mean.
BTW, I can mention many composers who are really poor instrumentalists (or even not at all) but are able to write some beautiful music. To me, a key in music is to be able to be an "opener" (no matter the tools you use) and not only an "executioner". With a little work, everybody can execute tunes.
Just my 2 cents.

Pretty much where I am at the moment, Learning Stick, Plus I'm learning ProTools. So looping is on the back burner, for now. But I do hope to explore the world of looping more in the future.

I never felt bad using a looper , it all depend how you use it.
Most pop music is based on loop.. think about Police and U2 but that's doesn't make it bad.

I think that here there is a looper artist that can say something

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf3SurCY ... 98&index=1

Randolf Arriola

Genius or cheater? Or both? I did notice he said he had to practice 8 years to achieve his current level of expertise.

Just thought I would add ...

It has recently come to my attention (well outside of this forum) that I am NOT a musician because it is not my primary source of income.

So I guess everyone has their definitions ... as reasonable or retarded as they might be.

we didn't want to tell you, but I guess you know now....

money and music????
be commercial doesn't mean being a musician
carefully use of talent toward being a show man playing an insttrument
it is not being a musician ...
I cannot think of a musician having real money from it.
(that would make a Just Bieber a musician ... )

After 20 years of studio recording and production i can say
that money comes with hard work done outside being a musician

there is plenty of talent out there
the one that has the right commercial machine behind
will make some money ...
the others will drools