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12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
https://www.stickist.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16476		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  DavidWS [ Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Travis59j wrote:
Sorry to dwell so much on a measurement, but it’s the only way I can think of to know whether what I’m experiencing (1.5 mm at the 12th fret on outer strings) is higher than typical.

The usual approach is to set the height at the nut/flaps end, then (having made sure the truss rod is well adjusted) lower the string till it buzzes, the raise a touch. Then recheck the truss rod & if you make a change , rinse & repeat the string adjustment.

Is it safe to assume you've seen the descriptions of this process at SE & here on the Forum?

That's what I've been doing. Gradually getting the strings lower & lower as I build up experience.

When I eventually get a "straight from SE' Stick I'll be fascinated to see how much better set up it is than I've managed! :)

I imaging that actual height is likely to vary a little from Stick to Stick since each is hand finished & then has a history of its own. I also imagine that there may be less variation with Railboards, but that's a pure guess?
Author:  Travis59j [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Thanks DavidWS,

The process you described is what I did. My issue is that if I lower any more, it frets out on the pickup housing. I assume the set-up instructions on SE and Greg’s video assume that “lower until it buzzes” applies to fret buzz, not my pickup height issue.

I’m now wondering what’s keeping the pickup from lowering all the way down. There’s a bit of springy resistance at the bottom of the pickup; I can manually push it down, but it springs back up just a tiny bit. And that tiny amount makes all the difference with the fret out.

I think I’ll eventually remove the pickup entirely and see what going on under there.
Author:  DavidWS [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Travis59j wrote:
The process you described is what I did. My issue is that if I lower any more, it frets out on the pickup housing.

That's very odd. It ought to be possible to get the pickups & the block they are in to be no higher than the last fret.

Just to be clear, when you say 'pickup housing' do you mean part of an actual pickup, or the pickup block (the thing that contains the two pickups)?

To get clearance I needed to both make sure the individual pickups were not above the surface of the block, and to lower the block (i.e.turn ('undo') the allen key screws on the back of the Stick, then tighen the block screws on the front of the block to take up the slack).
Author:  Travis59j [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
The block case is lower than the last fret. If I slide a straight-edge along the housing, toward the last fret, it bumps into the last fret.. So I’m good there. The pickups themselves are lowered so that the fretting out isn’t happening against them.

All of this makes me think that I’m going for an unrealistically low action. Since I’m brand-new to the Stick, I don’t know what is typical. It does seem that there is no “standard” action at the 12th fret, at least I’ve found very little information from people who have measured their instruments. And there is no standard measurement that I’ve found in any of the set-up instructions I’ve seen.

This is so weird to me, since it is fundamental to guitar set-up. But as I said earlier, I know the Stick is a different beast.
Author:  DavidWS [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Travis59j wrote:
It does seem that there is no “standard” action at the 12th fret, at least I’ve found very little information from people who have measured their instruments. And there is no standard measurement that I’ve found in any of the set-up instructions I’ve seen.

I presume that is for the reasons discussed earlier in the topic.

Travis59j wrote:
This is so weird to me, since it is fundamental to guitar set-up. But as I said earlier, I know the Stick is a different beast.

Yes, very different.

N.B. I'm a beginner too, but for me "as low as you can make it" seems perfectly reasonable.

A few thoughts on differences; maybe someone more experienced will correct them if I'm wrong?

On a guitar the neck has 'relief' (i.e. is not straight/flat).

On a guitar the main direction of string vibration is horizontal; whereas on a it's vertical

An action considered 'low' on a guitar would be very high on a Stick; so a difference of say 0.5mm on guitar may not be critical, but on a Stick the action is so low that that 0.5mm could be critical. WIth an action that low, even the technique of the player could make a difference?

PS. For judging straightness I use a good, designed for the purpose, plain (i.e. not notched) straight edge, and a feeler gauge.
Author:  paul [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Seems like mine is at about a half millimeter on the outer strings and about 1mm on the center strings. Just from eyeballing with a ruler. This is with the saddles at the height SE put them at, and the neck as flat as it can go. (My instrument starts to buzz first at the lowest fret on the highest bass-side string, so when that note starts to buzz I know I'm as flat as I can go.) I would keep at it with tweaking the setup because even a little extra bow affects playability.

If you fret the highest fret, does the string touch the block? To me, that would imply the saddles are too low or the block is still too high.
Author:  DavidWS [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
paul wrote:
If you fret the highest fret, does the string touch the block? To me, that would imply the saddles are too low or the block is still too high.

That's a very good test.

The tight string is always a straight line, & clearance for that string from the fret to the bridge is the absolute minimum (to which something will need to be added to allow for vibration!).

At the risk of stating the obvious, when comparing measurements (e.g. block height to fret height), a caliper (either vernier or digital) is a very handy tool. Judging differences of less than a mm by eye is not an option for my eyes!
Author:  DavidWS [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Travis59j wrote:
I’m now wondering what’s keeping the pickup from lowering all the way down. There’s a bit of springy resistance at the bottom of the pickup; I can manually push it down, but it springs back up just a tiny bit. And that tiny amount makes all the difference with the fret out.

I just did checked and with both my fully adjustable Sticks (10 string Graphite & 12 string bamboo, both with PASV4 blocks) if I take a side ways look I can see under the block clear through to the other side, so even though the block is already below fret level there is still more scope for lowing. That's just as I'd expect.

I believe the PASV4 block is exactly the same thickness as your EMG block.

Here's a view of the Graphite that clearly shows the gap under the block.

Attachment:
2023-03-13_14-57_DSCF8871_resize.jpg


and here's a close view of my bamboo (from the other side).

Attachment:
2023-03-13_15-00_DSCF8876_crop_resize.jpg


N.B. My outer strings are thicker than yours are likely to be - I have adopted a weird tuning. ;)
Author:  Travis59j [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Thanks for all the feedback! Very helpful.

I think there’s something a little off with the neck on mine. There seems to be some bowing at the high end, beyond where the single truss rod can help it. When I get a little money ahead, I’m going to send it back to SE and get them to put it right again. It’s probably due a good tune-up anyway.

Thanks again.
Author:  DavidWS [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 12th Fret Action on a Well-Set Up Stick
Travis59j wrote:
When I get a little money ahead, I’m going to send it back to SE and get them to put it right again. It’s probably due a good tune-up anyway.

Do you realise that it might be away for many months? Quite possibly over a year? Maybe even 18 months?

You might like to ask what current lead times are on refurbishment?

I think I heard that it may be possible to get your Stick 'in the queue' (i.e. booked in for when a slot becomes avaibale) but you only ship it when that slot is close to being a reality? However, I could be wrong. Asking is best.
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