You know, that's an interesting point.

What is the Buzz Feiten Tuning System?

http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm

When you fret or depress a string under tension, this causes the string to stretch or bend. The Buzz Feiten system attempts to mitigate this effect by moving the nut closer to the bridge, and by tuning the strings to slightly sharp or flat pitches depending on the string tension and diameter.

The Megatar has a zero fret, which could conceivably be closer to the bridge than 34". I also don't own a tuner that has the Feiten offsets built-in, and I don't know the offsets. I do know that you are supposed to tune all the E notes together if you're tuning by ear.

However... the lower the string action, the less the deflection when fretting. The less deflection, the less the Feiten system will help(?) the guitar stay in tune. Every product or idea has its detractors and supporters, so I won't go into how much or little the Feiten system helps. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy an instrument with the BFTS, nor would I retrofit any of my guitars or basses with one.

I love the idea of an inexpensive tapping instrument that doesn't suck. I was lucky in that my first guitar was a quality instrument and it didn't scare me away from learning to play. I think that an inexpensive tapper might tempt more players into discovering the instrument and its playing style, and the more folks that play these instruments, the better.

I would also love to see this type of instrument become less of a "secret society." Right now the price of admission is high and that keeps a lot of people out.

If we couldn't have proper Sticks, what would we do? What features are needed to make a viable tapping instrument that's not a Chapman Stick? I understand fully that we're on a forum dedicated to Emmett's method and the instrument he created to realize it, but while we're talking about "cheap tappers," we may as well figure out what a good one would be like.

This discussion would probably be better served in Teflon at this point.

You know ... I really don't think the issue with the growth of tapping instruments (Stick) in the general market place is the price! I think it's the huge leap of faith a person has to make buying one without (for most of us) having EVER held one in their hands! If there were Sticks at the local music store that a person could pick up and play BEFORE BUYING I think a lot more people would be jumping on board. Obviously with the current build time there's no way to flood music store with Sticks but I really believe for most people not being able to try before they buy is the the real issue, not the cost.

It is instructive that no company ever produced a true knock-off of the Stick (minimal body, belt hook, shoulder strap). The concept never reached a critical mass, either in sales or public awareness, to justify the tool-up costs. At least, that is one possible explanation.

Like most of the selling points for TT's instruments, you could look at this as basically a gimmick, used to put down The Stick's intonation (Warr doesn't have any mention of Feiten on their site as of today, don't know what that means...). It's hard to see how it applies, since the damper keeps the nut from being involved in any way in the overall intonation, and the really low action and relatively low string tension make the string-stretching effect a moot point as well.

If you have an adjustable nut, and you can make the fretboard truly flat, then even if the concept actually worked on an instrument without open strings, it wouldn't be necessary.

In the context of this thread, it certainly doesn't lower the cost.

Give a critical listen to the videos that are available for all the instruments in question, you'll hear lots of out of tune performances, (as for any instrument), some posted by professional musicians, even.

Make sure your truss is adjusted so that your board is perfectly flat (if possible), tune up before you hit that record button, and make sure you don't pull or push the strings when you tap them down, and play as close to the backside of the fret as possible without muting the string. All of these things will help you play more in tune. no need for arcane "technologies".

thanks for posting, pharoahamps,

Though this is exactly what zaubertuba said he didn't want the thread to be about, it's new information, and really helpful to people who are considering getting one of these instruments.

I found all of this very interesting reading, especially the part about not being able to use thicker low bass strings on the Megatar.

Happy Tapping,
Greg

Edit note: whether it was early morning coffee, a Freudian slip or simply the close proximity of the N and M keys on my laptop, I apologize for originally spelling Megatar as Negatar. No disrespect or name-calling intended. Both spellings are underlined on my browser's spell-checker, and it's not a word I type very often. Sorry, TT, no namecalling intended..

Greg, I think you misunderstand my point. My comment about the BFTS isn't about string stretching, it's about temperament.

We don't tend to notice how imperfect equal temperament is on instruments that cover limited ranges, though those imperfections are there. It becomes even more glaring when you're playing an instrument that covers more than a couple octaves. A major triad in 12TET simply does not sound as good as a major triad in just temperament, because all the difference tones are *not* in tune with each other. Ever hear a really good barbershop quartet? The sound is just amazing when they sing those big chords, because the triads are all perfectly tuned, and the difference tones actually support and reinforce the harmonic structure.

Perhaps I should have said that the BFTS results in chords that "sound better" than what you normally hear on purely equal-tempered instruments. As a whole we've gotten used to equal-temperament, but if you listen to a lot string or choral music, in particular, you can't deny the beauty of the sound--that's because voices and fretless string instruments are infinitely tunable and can truly achieve chords in perfect natural intervals.

After hearing what the BFTS does for pure intervals on a fretted instrument, I'm probably going to end up being a temperament nut-case.

Here's some articles you might find interesting:

http://www.precisionstrobe.com/apps/pianotemp/temper.html

http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun0.html

http://windworld.com/features/tools-resources/exmis-fret-placement-calculator/equal-temperaments-and-just-intonations/

Incidentally, I am a classically trained musician and *do* tune my instruments meticulously. If you ever can stand giving me a lesson at some point you probably will be able to speak to how well my NS is set-up (or not), but the action seems pretty darned low to me.

And...playing with temperaments is not "arcane technology." Ask any *decent* Piano tech. about it.

....and here you have me going wayyyy OT in my own thread. *sigh.*

You know--there's an interesting parallel here.

Apple Computer developed a cohesive hardware-software product, and heavily defended it's intellectual property rights of it's system. Quality of their products is very high--as is the cost, since everything is relatively proprietary. In spite of the excellence of their products, they struggled for a long time to establish any semblance of market share.

What we now call the "PC" is non-proprietary, has products in all price ranges, some of which can be less reliable (you get what you pay for). But, the PC has been able to establish a very broad market share, due in part (at least IMHO), to it's less proprietary, more diversified nature.

That doesn't make the PC better, and I think SE's business model is a solid one, and definitely more "Apple-esque," but it's food-for-thought, nonetheless.

Negatar, heh. I love that.

I owned a stick for 11 years. Loved it. Loved the sound. Ended up trading it for a Warr Phalanx. I didn't and don't understand the claim of various stickists that the instrument is ergonomically superior to other instruments. Mine wasn't, although I believe it was the result of the strap and belt-hook. In all that time of trying to adjust the damned thing, I could never get it to fit the way I wanted it to, and it hurt my left shoulder. It also hurt my left hand, as the instrument's natural tendency is to face straight up by function of the belt hook's fixed positioning. I didn't want it to face straight up. I'm a rock player, and I wanted versatility.

This is what brings me to my overall point, which I believe is the critical difference between the Warr and Stick, the only two tapping instruments I am able to evaluate. I wanted to play rock. I wanted to swing it, play it sideways, dig in hard, use several techniques. Now the Stick is a fine instrument, and the tone is fantastic. I, however, am a rock musician whose body and playing style is accustomed to playing the instrument with more of a sideways angle... like a bass. In 11 years, I could never make my pretty white oak stick obey me. I had to obey it. I view this as a fatal flaw for the instrument: it is not versatile with regard to performance in this capacity. This isn't to say it's a bad instrument; obviously it isn't, and everyone knows it is the standard to which all other tappers are compared. It just doesn't ROCK. For me.

The Warr is massive. It sounds massive, like a rock sound should. That mass allows me to position the instrument anywhere I want, with any angle I want, effortlessly. It is ergonomically superior in every way. The guitar frets are easier to negotiate for one accustomed to instruments using such frets, making it (in my mind) a more natural crossover instrument. While the Stick has a unique "wiry" tone which, as far as I know, has never been duplicated, the Warr has a wide variety of tonal frequencies available onboard. However, I have only used the "stickup", and do not have any experience with newer available pickups. I do hear they have some greater tonal characteristics and variety, although I have not heard them anywhere on this forum, anywhere on youtube, or anywhere else. Also, I have never held a newer stick, but as far as I know the belt hook still holds the stick in one fixed position.

My point is this: this debate was, is, and always will be completely subjective. Just because I play rock and don't want that instrument to remain perfectly still doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. That is to say that most stickists might LIKE the stick to maintain the perfect straight angle. I find that stick players don't play the sort of music that I do, and that many Warr players do. I find that interesting.

I'd love to own a 10-string grand, but would never use it on a gig with one of my bands. I would record with it, and probably not my rock stuff. I remain intrigued by the NS, which I believe Emmett created to remedy the "flaw" I have just explained.

Kev

It was my understanding that all newer Warrs had the BFTS standard on the instrument. As I own the very first Phalanx out of the very first production run, I do not have it on mine. However, I have never had a problem with intonation. I have heard sticks do suffer from bad intonation on the melody side (I have also heard aliens killed JFK), but have never had such a problem with mine when I owned it. I do not view the BFTS as a selling point, and agree with Greg on this.

Kev

Yes, I walked right into that one myself with my own "comparison post!" I guess I wouldn't make a very good moderator...

So let me amend my earlier caveats: It's probably not possible to talk about these subjects without *some* existing manufacturer parallels or comparisons. Please keep them as factual as possible, though. "Negatar" is a pretty blatent slam, IMHO.